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aggressive play vs tricky player

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aggressive play vs tricky player

Postby growlers » Wed May 23, 2007 5:56 pm

This hand I thought was interesting. Villian is a really tricky good aggressive player that I have played many hands of 8-16 with but this was 4-8 since the 8-16 game had broken. He perceives me as a good tricky player who is willing to bluff if he thinks he can push you off a hand.
He also likes to steal.

Dealt to me in BB:
[Kh] [Qh]
One horrible passive caling station limps UTG, everyone else folds, villian on button raises, I call, UTG calls. (SB got up so not in hand)
Flop:
[Tc] [6h] [2d]
I check, UTG checks, button bets, I call, UTG calls.
Turn:
[Jc]
I check, UTG checks, button bets $8, I raise to $16, UTG thinks for a minute and cold calls, button calls.
River: [3d]
I ????????

We had been playing 5-6 handed for awhile before this hand and me and villian had been involved in many back and forth raising wars when he was trying to steal, so there was alot of history. I was varying my play alot since we had been involved in numerous of these exchanges in the last hour. If this was a standard scenerio I clearly would always three bet preflop so let's not go there.
There was also a hand two orbits before where I smooth called with KK but he wound up outdrawing me with Q3o and won a big pot off me but I had to show my hand.
Thanks!
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Postby emmasdad » Wed May 23, 2007 6:21 pm

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Postby antneye » Wed May 23, 2007 7:25 pm

I have re-typed my answer two times. I originally agreed with emma, but I think we have to cut our losses here.

Heres why. Villain raises after seeing the bad passive player limp. Villain isnt stealing here and is looking to get heads up with the weaker player because he has a hand that is likely to be better than the rags Mr. Limpy is playing.

I have to put him on Ace high or a PP here, maybe a big suited broadway like you. The flop was good for his range so he c-bets you. The turn is where you made your move, and by rights he should have folded to your check raise if he has absolute air. Hid call makes me thinks he has a mid PP and thinks maybe you are bluffing and looks to get to the river............would he call your c/r with less than A high? I doubt it so my range for him stays the same.

River doesn't help us........we've struck out. Check fold and move on to the next hand. If we had a piece of this board in any fashion I could bet/fold since A high makes up a good portion of his holdings and we may get some value. But with a busted draw into 2 people we have to give it up.

Thats my thoughts and I am clicking submit before i change my mind
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Postby emmasdad » Wed May 23, 2007 7:29 pm

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Postby antneye » Wed May 23, 2007 7:41 pm

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Postby MecosKing » Wed May 23, 2007 10:41 pm

NorthViewBTP: poor old ED
NorthViewBTP: from gun totin beer swiller
NorthViewBTP: to limp wristed defender of fagdom
NorthViewBTP: ALL THINGS TO ALL MEN
NorthViewBTP: IS THE SAME AS NO THINGS TO ANY MAN
--------------------
Mekos King: NV ignoring
Jimmy BTP: he's ignoring me too
Jimmy BTP: obv fell asleep in his colostomy bag
Jimmy BTP: running shite everywhere
---------
neelguru: I gave up politics when I was 6
neelguru: Im dedicating the rest of my life to getting unstuck
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Postby MecosKing » Wed May 23, 2007 11:34 pm

NorthViewBTP: poor old ED
NorthViewBTP: from gun totin beer swiller
NorthViewBTP: to limp wristed defender of fagdom
NorthViewBTP: ALL THINGS TO ALL MEN
NorthViewBTP: IS THE SAME AS NO THINGS TO ANY MAN
--------------------
Mekos King: NV ignoring
Jimmy BTP: he's ignoring me too
Jimmy BTP: obv fell asleep in his colostomy bag
Jimmy BTP: running shite everywhere
---------
neelguru: I gave up politics when I was 6
neelguru: Im dedicating the rest of my life to getting unstuck
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Postby Schuster » Wed May 23, 2007 11:59 pm

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Postby MecosKing » Thu May 24, 2007 12:31 am

NorthViewBTP: poor old ED
NorthViewBTP: from gun totin beer swiller
NorthViewBTP: to limp wristed defender of fagdom
NorthViewBTP: ALL THINGS TO ALL MEN
NorthViewBTP: IS THE SAME AS NO THINGS TO ANY MAN
--------------------
Mekos King: NV ignoring
Jimmy BTP: he's ignoring me too
Jimmy BTP: obv fell asleep in his colostomy bag
Jimmy BTP: running shite everywhere
---------
neelguru: I gave up politics when I was 6
neelguru: Im dedicating the rest of my life to getting unstuck
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Postby growlers » Thu May 24, 2007 1:43 am

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Postby Danhdan » Thu May 24, 2007 4:01 am

"Million dollar play, ten cent finish."

"My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives."

"Laugh and the world stares at you; cry, and the world stares at you."
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Postby Pok 7's » Thu May 24, 2007 9:32 am

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Postby growlers » Thu May 24, 2007 12:30 pm

So you guys don't think UTG has a flush draw here like ~90% of the time?
She would have raised earlier with a set, and no way she calls two cold with a single pair.
Only way at least to me she doesn't have a club flush draw is if she has JT of other suits, which is a possibility so that to me is the other 10%.

I frankly wasn't concerned about her much at all when a nonclub hit as far as her actual holding, but my concern with her is that her bloating the pot by calling would cause button to call with any pair or even A-high.

I fired the river, she turbo-mucked - the button mucked and gave me a "nice hand". I didn't show my K-high but part of me wanted to.

That whole river part is pretty cool I think but again my man motivation for posting was the rest of the play. You guys have made some good points about the situation, but I kinda feel conflicted still.

It seems like in a steal situation against an aggressive opponent (ignore UTG being in the hand here - I wasn't counting on her hanging around) where I decide I am defending:
1) three-bet preflop, lead flop, three bet if raised and then lead turn (8 SB)
2) three bet preflop, lead flop, lead turn(6SB)
3) smooth call preflop, check/call flop, checkraise turn, fold if he threebets (7SB)
4) smooth call preflop, checkraise flop, 4-bet if/when raised and lead turn (8sb)

It seems like #3 doesn't really spew that many more chips and I still feel like against a GOOD player I have more fold equity. It almost takes away his positional advantage when you checkraise the turn as it is such a strong play. Note that against a good tricky player you have to not fold to a single flop raise because I find that it means absolutely nothing and that they hardly ever fold to a single checkraise on the flop, they usually three-bet (or smoothcall if they have a monster and pop the turn).

Does this change anyone's mind? I really think I am onto something here as far as thoery.
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Postby MecosKing » Thu May 24, 2007 1:20 pm

NorthViewBTP: poor old ED
NorthViewBTP: from gun totin beer swiller
NorthViewBTP: to limp wristed defender of fagdom
NorthViewBTP: ALL THINGS TO ALL MEN
NorthViewBTP: IS THE SAME AS NO THINGS TO ANY MAN
--------------------
Mekos King: NV ignoring
Jimmy BTP: he's ignoring me too
Jimmy BTP: obv fell asleep in his colostomy bag
Jimmy BTP: running shite everywhere
---------
neelguru: I gave up politics when I was 6
neelguru: Im dedicating the rest of my life to getting unstuck
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Postby antneye » Thu May 24, 2007 1:56 pm

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