hey guys i started to play poker a week ago with play money and did pretty well and today i attempted to play my first real money games. on the 1/2 limit table. and to not surprise i lost 150 at the limit table then i remember reading somewhere that s n g is the way to build some good bankroll tried that, lost another 50, and now i have 300 left in my account. 200, is not big deal but before going on to learn somemore. i have a question. where do i start? where can i learn more before playing for more real money? is no-limit a better game for profit?

thanks guys!
J

Whatup dude

Firstly, lemme just say welcome to the business. It's a tough racket sometimes. You oughta post a few hands, say in big pots that you lost and stuff like that, and we all will be very happy to critize your horrible play! Hehe-- im kiddin. But seriously, you oughta post some hands that you think migthve been problematic. Also, invest in pokertracker and gametime+ if you havent already.

Beyond that, id recommend reading some books. The book that i recommend the MOST is 'Small Stakes Holdem' by Sklansky (and Miller, i wanna say?) - anyways its a 2+2 publishing book, and im sure you can find it in a million differnet places on the net, or at barnes and noble (thats where i got mine i think) I really cant say enough about that book. My other personal fave is one that most people havent read, which is 'Killer HOldem' by John Voohaus. Its not about hand rankings and math and odds so much, but a mix of psychology and general poker principals, as well as hand examples.

I dont have a problem with 1/2 as a starting limit...But if your $300 is extremely important to you, i.e. you cant rebuy if you lose it, you might consider playing .50/1.00 if your really a total beginner. I started playin 2/4 and 3/6, and probably lost a tad more than i had to learnin this godawful game.

hmmm..what else, what else...Oh yeah you should try and take advantage of deposit bonuses whenever you can. I dont know much about bonus-whoring personally, as i just never had the motivation put money into a bunch of crappy sites to chase bonuses, but a lot of people have made an art out of it, and add a pretty decent chunk to thier monthly winnings using this - and its good for someone on a limited broll. Just go into the 'online sites' forum and look over some posts/ask some ?'s.

I do NOT like low limit SnG's for building broll. IMHO, they are too crapshooty, and i really dont know too many people that post good size and consistent profits from playing them. (I know im gonna get like 10 irate responses to this posts from people that play SnG's - this is only my opinion on the matter, maybe i just suck at them

I mean, if your totally starting out, you got so much to learn, theres not a whole lor of specific stuff i can say to you. AA is a good hand. 25 is not a good hand, unless it suited, in which case its playable from any position, for any amount of raises. (kidding) - but seriously, the best place to start is with a couple of books, some bonuses, and PT so you can look over your hands and your stats to see how youre really playing.

Other than that post a few hands when you getta chance...and good luck, mai san!

PT is the first tool brought to track my playing. aka look at hand history, my opponents stats,, etc. but i have yet to figure out how to make use of the data to fix my "leaks". 300-500 isnt much money, just paying my price to learn.

can u show me how to fix my leaks?

thanks!
J

Uhm...well, ya if you post some hands up here or whatnot, im shure we'll all throw in our 2 cents, etc. But honestly, like i said earlier, if you are a total newbie, before you worry about fixing the leaks in your 'game' you have to get a basic understanding of the fundamentals, to develop a 'game'. If you are a new player, you dont really have a 'game' yet. You gotta read some literature for that one - i cant exactly type an entire book on how to play poker, ya know?

Don't forget to read the past posts in this section. There is some really good info in them. Also, "limit aggression numbers" and "how to beat online limit holdem" are excellant. They are sticky posts at the top of this forum. And "junk hands leak" which I forget where it is, probably in Poker tracker or NL section.

Post some hand histories and some poker tracker numbers and u will get some good feedback here.

Now some might disagree with the following so take it with a grain of salt. I started out 2 yrs ago at play money also. But even though my bankroll would allow it I only moved up 1 level at a time to prove to myself that I was winning at each level. I hit all the micro levels, .01/.02, .02/.04, .05/.10, .10/.20, .25/.50, .50/1.00 until I was winning and only then did I move up. I am glad that I did because it was cheap while I was learning and you will run into types of players and situations, like extremely loose tables or extremely aggressive players much more often than at higher limits. But since you will already have been there and done that you will still be comfortable.

First, I would start at a lower limit as I think it will teach you to tighten up. I thought I played tighe when I first started at the .50/$1 tables and I thought I was tight but I wasn't. In order to win at that limit consistently, I really had to improve my game. I would first suggest to play a lower limit and also try to play for a bonus so you have that coming in.

Also, do you play one table or multiple tables? You got any PT stats for us to analyze? As MK said, some hand histories would help to. Find a few hands you have questions about and post them in new posts so take a look.

okay here are some of my stats.

that i played with on my new empire account since i lost my 200.

game level: .5/1 (593 hands)
vp$ip: 26.31
wtsd: 30.17
w$sd: 48.15
pf raise %: 4.38

final hand summary: [type of hand], [# hands], [net win/loss]
high card, 138, (36.25)
one pair, 250, (65.00)
two pair, 96, 1.65
three of a kind, 30, 12.25
straight, 25, 4.02
flush, 13, 3.25
full house, 11, 22.25

net loss: (58.34)

$0.5/$1 Hold'em
Table Table 25415 (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 4: Zacharz ( $24.75 )
Seat 5: raucouscc ( $50.5 )
Seat 6: Esse10 ( $33.89 )
Seat 10: fasualuuu ( $42.59 )
Seat 2: j0nj0n9 ( $9.25 )
Seat 3: Nimbus2001 ( $35 )
Seat 9: mookirider ( $22.5 )
Seat 8: jas36 ( $0 )
Seat 1: GulfWhiskey ( $23 )
Seat 7: JPoinT ( $19.5 )
j0nj0n9 posts small blind [$0.25].
Nimbus2001 posts big blind [$0.5].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to j0nj0n9 [ Qs Kc ]
jas36 has left the table.
Zacharz folds.
raucouscc calls [$0.5].
Esse10 raises [$1].
JPoinT calls [$1].
mookirider folds.
fasualuuu raises [$1.5].
GulfWhiskey folds.
j0nj0n9 calls [$1.25].
Nimbus2001 folds.
raucouscc calls [$1].
Esse10 calls [$0.5].
JPoinT calls [$0.5].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 7h, Qc, Qh ]
j0nj0n9 checks.
raucouscc checks.
Esse10 bets [$0.5].
JPoinT folds.
fasualuuu raises [$1].
j0nj0n9 raises [$1.5].
raucouscc folds.
Esse10 raises [$1.5].
fasualuuu folds.
j0nj0n9 calls [$0.5].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5c ]
j0nj0n9 checks.
Esse10 bets [$1].
j0nj0n9 raises [$2].
Esse10 raises [$2].
j0nj0n9 raises [$2].
Esse10 calls [$1].
** Dealing River ** [ 4h ]
j0nj0n9 checks.
Esse10 bets [$1].
j0nj0n9 calls [$1].
Esse10 shows [ Qd, Ah ] three of a kind, queens.
j0nj0n9 doesn't show [ Qs, Kc ] three of a kind, queens.
Esse10 wins $22 from the main pot with three of a kind, queens with ace kicker.


----------

$0.5/$1 Hold'em
Table Table 25415 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 3: patcfc ( $101.49 )
Seat 4: Zacharz ( $22.75 )
Seat 5: raucouscc ( $41.5 )
Seat 6: Esse10 ( $39.64 )
Seat 7: luxurygold ( $22.75 )
Seat 8: StacysMom420 ( $24.75 )
Seat 9: kskillz ( $22.25 )
Seat 10: fasualuuu ( $10.34 )
Seat 1: CUJO_99 ( $22.75 )
Seat 2: j0nj0n9 ( $23.5 )
StacysMom420 posts small blind [$0.25].
kskillz posts big blind [$0.5].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to j0nj0n9 [ Ts Ah ]
fasualuuu folds.
CUJO_99 folds.
j0nj0n9 calls [$0.5].
patcfc calls [$0.5].
Zacharz folds.
raucouscc calls [$0.5].
Esse10 folds.
luxurygold folds.
StacysMom420 folds.
kskillz checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 6h, 2d, 2h ]
kskillz checks.
j0nj0n9 checks.
patcfc checks.
raucouscc bets [$0.5].
kskillz folds.
j0nj0n9 calls [$0.5].
patcfc calls [$0.5].
** Dealing Turn ** [ As ]
j0nj0n9 checks.
patcfc checks.
raucouscc bets [$1].
j0nj0n9 calls [$1].
patcfc folds.
** Dealing River ** [ 8h ]
j0nj0n9 checks.
raucouscc bets [$1].
j0nj0n9 calls [$1].
raucouscc shows [ 9h, Kh ] a flush, king high.
j0nj0n9 doesn't show [ Ts, Ah ] two pairs, aces and twos.
raucouscc wins $7.25 from the main pot with a flush, king high.

--------

$0.5/$1 Hold'em - Sunday, June 19, 03:27:23 EDT 2005
Table Flying Penguin (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 8: j0nj0n9 ( $24.75 )
Seat 2: csfernando ( $74.25 )
Seat 9: taucher21 ( $1.12 )
Seat 4: jamsay5 ( $42.25 )
Seat 1: newandor ( $18.7 )
Seat 5: jimsalyers ( $10.13 )
Seat 7: GCD888 ( $7.75 )
Seat 3: karlynn2 ( $27.5 )
Seat 6: kickback33 ( $32.99 )
Seat 10: henhicks ( $0 )
karlynn2 posts small blind [$0.25].
jamsay5 posts big blind [$0.5].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to j0nj0n9 [ Ad Qd ]
henhicks has joined the table.
jimsalyers calls [$0.5].
kickback33 calls [$0.5].
GCD888 folds.
j0nj0n9 calls [$0.5].
taucher21 calls [$0.5].
newandor folds.
csfernando raises [$1].
karlynn2 calls [$0.75].
jamsay5 folds.
jimsalyers calls [$0.5].
kickback33 calls [$0.5].
j0nj0n9 calls [$0.5].
taucher21 calls [$0.5].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 7d, 6d, 5h ]
karlynn2 checks.
jimsalyers bets [$0.5].
kickback33 calls [$0.5].
j0nj0n9 calls [$0.5].
taucher21 is all-In.
csfernando calls [$0.5].
karlynn2 calls [$0.5].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3s ]
karlynn2 checks.
jimsalyers bets [$1].
kickback33 calls [$1].
j0nj0n9 calls [$1].
csfernando folds.
karlynn2 calls [$1].
** Dealing River ** [ Kc ]
karlynn2 checks.
jimsalyers checks.
kickback33 checks.
j0nj0n9 checks.
karlynn2 shows [ 2c, 5s ] a pair of fives.
jimsalyers doesn't show [ Td, 3d ] a pair of threes.
kickback33 shows [ 7c, 3c ] two pairs, sevens and threes.
j0nj0n9 doesn't show [ Ad, Qd ] high card ace.
taucher21 doesn't show [ 9d, 9h ] a pair of nines.
kickback33 wins $5.65 from side pot #1 with two pairs, sevens and threes.
kickback33 wins $6.72 from the main pot with two pairs, sevens and threes.

from this point on.. ill draw the line HERE..

-----------------------------------------------------------

I'll play seriously once from the feedback i will receive. let the critical feedback flow winners!

thanks for everything!
J

Hand 1: Man, thats crappy. You played it fine, nothing much you can do when you run QQK into QQA. One thing that i assure you someone is going to say is that you shouldnt have called a raise with QKo from the SB, as QKo is famous for being a 'trouble hand' against a raiser. Its a good hand if there have been no raises- its even a raising hand in that case. But against a raise, its too likely that either your a coinflip to win (88-JJ) or else you are totally dominated by AK, AQ or even KK or AA. And if you flop a top pair hand, its gonna be a big one, and hard to get away from (trips are infinitely worse of course) Generally QK isnt playeble for a raise. Thats somethin your gonna hafta learn definitely - and once you do youll have an advantage over lots of folks who have been playing for about 30 years and still havent learned that. However, from the SB ehh.. the call is marginal in my opinion...I probly muckit unless the raiser is loose. Once you saw the flop though, nothing at all you can do...

Hand 2: Again, you got drawn out on. I think you played this okay. EP limp with ATo is fine IMHO, if the game is loose and not aggressive. Uhm... As far as peeling one off to catch your ace - well, not a fan of it really. I think you either gotta bluff here (i.e. bet or Chech raise) or just muck it. I dont think you have odds to make a pair on the turn with 3 players in the pot...although again, this is probly a marginal call, although someone will probly disagree and say it was an easy fold. Personally, i suck at knowing odds, i can just say from my experience that its a pretty marginal situation, proble leaning towards a fold, unless you decided to bluff at it, which wouldnt be a horrible idea with 226 on the board.

Once you hit your ace, i think you shouldve bet or raised it. Another thing that new players take awhile to learn is that you shouldnt be avers to raising a decent top pair hand on the turn. It took me forever to realize that yes, a TP hand is worth a turn raise, and the 3 bet that i always dreaded so very much (hence i would usually just call a TP hand if bet into on the turn) almost never came. Its the damn check raises that you gotta be worried about more often than the bet. Raising wouldve just cost you two additional bets in this situation obviously, but you were best at the time...

Hand 3: Uhm. Well, personally ill raise AQd against any number of limpers, cuz its a good hand, and if you hit that badboy youll get paid.
--Okay you didnt, thats reasonable too, lots of people will limp it if there are a million players in front.
You flopped the nut flush draw- I wouldve raised the flop here for value- you got a bet and a call, so they arent folding, so if you raise chances are youll get one more caller probly, plus the other two - and if your lucky someone will 3 bet it and you can cap for value again. The nuts will get there 35% of the time, so if youve got 3 people or more in the pot, you should put as much money in on the flop as you can, especially if you think your overcards are good outs too, then your well into the 40s percentage wise. Also, you can get a free card out of it if you raise the flop and miss the turn, and its checked to you.
--You flat called, which isnt a terrible play either by any means - i just prefer the more aggressive ram n jam style.
--You missed and you folded. Standard stuff, you just missed. Good thing oyu didnt cap it up on the flop eh?
This hand was played fine.

Basically all your hands were played decently, with the exception of small nitpicks like the QK out of the SB being bad in the first place, not mucking the AT on the flop, or raising it on the turn, etc.

Over all, it looks to me as though you play too passive of a game, which is probly normal to start. I remember when people bet into me i was always like oh fuck- they must have a hand, i should just call. But hands in holdem aint all that easy to make. Id say tune up the aggression a little bit, bet and raise more and call less.

EDIT: Okay i didnt see your stats post. You need to tune up the aggression ALOT. You need to be over 1.5 in your agg factor at LEAST...I was looking at your stats the one thing i noticed - did you LIMP with TT a bunch of times? Cuz you gotem 5 times and PFR is only 20%. You gotta raise those up alot more...and three bet it if it comes raised to you, even if theres a caller in between (two callers, probly not so great ot do that).. I dunno when and where you gotem, since there are definitely places where raising a TT is not the best play (like, your in the blinds and its limped around 6 handed to you) but just form the numbers, you play too passive. Bet and raise ALOT more!

Your sample is a bit small to discern THAT much tho.