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Playing on super-tight tables... suggestions?

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Playing on super-tight tables... suggestions?

Postby musicman80 » Sat May 21, 2005 8:11 pm

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Postby TightWad » Sat May 21, 2005 10:30 pm

Music,

First off, I feel I have to give the token "don't play at tight tables" disclaimer, but I understand that sometimes, there's no option. Empire's tables are also often pretty shitty at the times I choose to play, and it doesn't help that I'm too damned lazy to use good game-selection techniques. :oops:

Anyway, I think I've played at enough of these tight tables that I can muster a decent winrate, and give decent advice...even though I occasionally get out of line and don't follow it! :? Before I get into anything specific, let me give you a basic synopsis:

Supertight play will not earn a decent rate at a very tight table...but overly loose-aggressive play will kill your bankroll. You need to play more hands than normal, but playing like a complete maniac won't win you the money. You need to be more aggressive then usual in pots you've raised, and more cautious than normal in pots that your opponents are showing interest in.

At a loose table, marginal hands might show a small profit, but premium hands and strong drawing hands (small pairs in multiway pots, for example) will yield the lion's share of your winnings. At a tight table, you can't afford to wait for the best cards, because that's what everyone else is doing. You can't rely on making huge scores by raising AK, flopping a king and having two king-rag hands pay you off all the way. Instead, you have to throw in some extra hands (mostly in late position), and play them aggressively.

Point 1 : Aggressive is more important than loose

Most tight games you'll find will also be pretty weak and passive. For the most part, you're playing guys that have a decent grasp of starting requirements, but still don't show a lot of imagination or awareness. Therefore, you can pick up small pots fairly easily, and also get away from a marginal hand if your opponent gives you action. Here's some examples to illustrate both points. Hand 1 : I have A9s on the cutoff, with one MP limper. I raise, only he calls, and the flop comes up A-8-3 rainbow. He checks, I bet, and he checkraises. I don't need to pay him off, because I know he almost definitely has me beat. I'll call his raise and drop my hand on the turn without the slightest hesitation unless I hit my kicker. Hand 2 : I have QTo on the button, I open-raise and the big blind defends. No matter what the flop is, I'm betting it, and since these players can generally be relied upon to play in a nice ABC manner, I'll probably take the pot a good majority of the time.

Basically, my strategy at these tables is kinda similar to late-tournament strategy; I'm gonna be aggressive, but also willing to back down when someone plays back (unless I have a monster). You really don't wanna get in a big pot against these guys unless you've got the goods. In a loose-passive type of game, hands like AQ or AJ will often dominate your opponents. In tight games, it's a lot less likely.

Point 2 : You'll win pots by raising, not by calling

Cold-calling is bad. I know that, you know that, everyone knows that. In tight games, it's even worse. Be very selective aboiut which hands you play against a raise. These guys don't play a lot of hands, so if they come in with a raise, they're probably aiming to see a showdown. So that's a terrible time to try to bully them.

Raising preflop is a good idea under the following circumstances : (1) You have a rocking-good hand. Duh. :) (2) You have a chance of stealing the blinds...but still, don't start doing this with trash. You still want to have a reasonable hand. (3) You can get it heads-up.

Every once in a while, you'll raise and still find yourself with a rather multiway pot even at tight tables. If this is the case, there's no need to keep on pushing if you don't hit. If you raise AK, and get 4 callers and a 7-8-9 flop, there's really no need to put another bet in. But usually, that won't be the case. Most raised pots will be either heads-up or 3-way. And in these cases, you should almost always fire at least one more bullet on the flop. If you're raised, or if someone bets ahead of you, then just play by the odds, drop if you missed.

For the most part, these guys aren't looking to make fearless call-downs with underpairs, or fish for gutshots. You're not gonna beat the game by only winning with the best hand, so you need to pick up some of the pots that no one else wants.

Point 3 : Focus!

Yeah, I know, you should focus no matter what game you're playing. Nevertheless, I believe that a tight game requires that you pay attention moreso than a loose one. For one thing, even tight tables often have one or two calling stations; make sure you know who they are, and just play solid straightforward poker against them.

A lot of these players won't really be aware of what you're doing; they're just playing their cards, looking to flop strong hands, and avoid tough decisions. These are the guys you can bully, within reason. Some of them will show a bit more imagination and playing back at you to keep you honest. Don't mess with tight aggressive players unless you've got good cards or a good read. Focus on the easy money.

You also need to pay attention to individual players so you can know when to shut down. When they call your flop bet, does that mean they're likely to go to the river, or will they frequently fold to a turn bet? In general, it's a bad idea to keep betting the turn on a straight steal, but if a player shows a strong tendency to fold to big bets, it may be a good idea to keep pushing a semibluffing type of hand.


One final thing I'd like to note: a trendy idea these days is that late-position is not actually a good place to steal-raise from, because it looks too obviously like a steal. Personally, I think that idea is bullshit. Yeah, some folks are gonna catch on to what you're doing, but most of your opponents still really don't want to enter the "gray area" and start putting moves on you. They'll try to hold out for a monster against you, but you're not worried about that because you're not gonna tangle with them once they start playing back. If you play an aggressive game, tempered with a lot of discipline, you'll win a bunch of small pots, until they finally hit their monster...and they'll only win a couple bets back anyway.

Finally, here's a couple of plays that can have decent success at these tables. (1) The paired board bluff. If you check in the BB or call in the small blind, it's often worth it to take a shot at a paired flop, especially if the pair is middle or low. A flop of 4-4-9 is a likely one to have missed your opponents in a fairly shorthanded flop, and they'll also be leary of calling with overcards...so toss a bet out. In a 4-way pot, your bluff only has to work 1 in 4 times; if you get called or raised, you're almost always best off just giving up on the pot. (2) LP big-card steals. Say you're in a 3-way pot, on the button, against an MP limper and the big blind. The flop comes up K-8-6. If it checks to me, I'll often bet this even if it missed me. Their checks tell me they don't have much, and there's really no draws that can call me, so I'll take a shot. BUT, on a flop of 7-5-2 or K-J-5, I'll be far less likely to take a stab with nothing. On the 7-5-2 flop, your opponents are more likely to call with overcards, and it's harder to represent a hand that hit that flop. On a flop like K-J-5, a steal-bet isn't as effective because there's two broadway cards, and it's thus more likely to have hit your opponents in some way.

Re-reading this post, I'm not sure if it was any help at all. Seems like I kinda went on a rant there. Oh well! :)

-TW
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Postby TightWad » Sat May 21, 2005 11:04 pm

Here's a couple statistic just to hopefully emphasize the point that LP open-raises are effective at tight tables...from my 3-6 stats under attempts to steal blinds:

EDIT: I had these statistics a little fucked up the first time I posted this, so here's the correct numbers.

When I make an LP open-raise :

59% of the time, I win without showdown (either preflop or postflop)
13.6% of the time, I win a showdown
12% of the time, I lose a showdown
15.4% of the time, I fold at some point

So, all told, I win the pot 72.6% of the times in these situations. When I'm playing disciplined enough that I can avoid losing a lot on the hands I lose, this winds up being a good supplement to my winrate. Ideally, you want to win as many small pots as possible, and lose as little as possible when you run into a hand. That's often pretty tough to balance, and I'll be the first to admit that I need to work on the second half.

Anyway, I'm a bit of an over-raiser...tee hee...but I think these numbers go to show that you don't have to be too too worried about folks catching on, playing back at you and destroying the effectiveness of your steal-raises. You have to show some discipline and not get carried away with the idea, but it's a pretty damned necessary weapon in your arsenal at tightish tables.

-TW
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Postby striker2550 » Sun May 22, 2005 12:14 am

"Re-reading this post, I'm not sure if it was any help at all. Seems like I kinda went on a rant there. Oh well!"

Heck, I thought it was excellent.

So who are u and what have u done with Tightie?
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Postby TightWad » Sun May 22, 2005 12:17 pm

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Postby MecosKing » Sun May 22, 2005 3:48 pm

Nice post titey! You and me- can both talk a great game, while playing hopelessly bad, and getting infinitely stuck. I like it. Pretty sure its the gin. Nice post though.

Musicman--

I would have to say to musicman that in spite of the fact that there are adjustments you can make to your game at a super-tight table that will certainly help, i think the token 'just dont play at tight tables' thing is really the best advice--Its shitty sittin there with JJ on a ragged board, and having to worry about the raiser being paired over you...

UB is not the optimal place to play, at least not small limits. The 80 games there get wild, but obviously i aint got the roll for that no mo'....30 and smaller is way too tight, especially full tables, IMHO...Also, table selection really is pretty important, even though i know its a pain in the ass, i have to say the more i play, the more i realize that, guess what? The tables where i win the most are the ones where there are a couple of OBVIOUSLY bad players, because the fact of the matter is, even if your a 'good' player, the edge you have over other pretty solid players is not THAT big, and just a couple of beats in a situation where your playing against solid players is enough to turn what might have been an up-session into a loser...

I dont datamine tables with PT / GT before i sit or anything like that, but i have no problem getting up from a table after like 30-40 hands or so, if i dont see anyone with 50%+ VP, or if i see lots of 25-30, PFA 2+, etc (for short handed)- ive actually disciplined myself to do this, even when im stuck, which is alot harder to do than it might sound...

Anyways, i recently must admit, i cant say enough about table selection--it's defintely worth the hassle to find a couple of good ones--
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NorthViewBTP: to limp wristed defender of fagdom
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NorthViewBTP: IS THE SAME AS NO THINGS TO ANY MAN
--------------------
Mekos King: NV ignoring
Jimmy BTP: he's ignoring me too
Jimmy BTP: obv fell asleep in his colostomy bag
Jimmy BTP: running shite everywhere
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Postby musicman80 » Sun May 22, 2005 4:36 pm

TW - great post, drunk or not. :-D I like the advice you gave, and the funny thing is, that I seem to have been doing more or less what you suggest, subconsciously, at least. I think I could certainly use a bit more aggression in some of the situations I choose to play, and I think I need to work quite a bit more on my bluffing strategy. The problem has been that even if I try the "paired-board bluff", for instance (which I have certainly won enough small pots with to make it +EV), I invariably end up doing so against someone who'll fight back. This makes it very difficult to continue being the aggressor... :-(

Mecos,

About datamining and table selection - I am actually pretty rigorous about doing this, especially given the tight reputation of the UB folk. [Slightly off-topic: In fact, for those folks who do play on UB and use GT+, now that GT+ is open-source, I've been working on adding a feature that will allow you to pre-fetch a specified number of hands' worth of history, to make this datamining process a whole lot easier. Imagine being able to walk to a table with 100 hands of history on some players!] I have found that what seems to work well, at least on UB, is to find a table with a relatively low average pot size, and one with a modest PFR of at most 4-5%. Or at least, this strategy *used to* work well... Additionally, I am pretty good about not becoming table-committed, either - if the table quality hasn't improved by ~30-40 hands or so, I start looking for other tables.

The problem is, I can't seem to find anything decent any more! :-( I guess one reason I've been pretty solidly for playing @ UB is because I really like the software and interface, and I especially like their MTT and SnG structures. (I haven't been playing tourneys that often, recently, but I do like to indulge in a $5 every once in a while.) Also, I have actually datamined a few tables on a few occaisons at Party, and maybe I haven't looked hard enough, but I haven't found anything much better than what I used to see at UB (28-35 VPIP, 4-6PFR, etc.). I don't have a particularly huge roll at the moment (I've been trying to build it for a while now.. :-)), and I'm really hesitant to take all my money and dump it into PP, although I've really seriously been thinking about it. Is this really my only option at this point?
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Postby TightWad » Sun May 22, 2005 5:03 pm

Music,

Just a quick note/emphasis...you said that your paired-board bluffs, for example, occasionally run into people that play back strong at you. This just goes back to the idea of being aggressive only until you're played back at. If I bet on a raggedy paired board and get raised, I'm folding 100% of the time. If I get called, I'm almost always shutting down as well. Are there times when I think it's appropriate to keep bluffing after a flop-call? Sure, but the VAST majority of the time, I'm shutting down. That advice really goes for any type of bluff.

For that matter, if you bluff at every board of this type, there's bound to be at least one or two TAGish players that'll catch on and try to take it away from you. Therefore, it's important to use some balance; you don't always have to bluff at boards like these, just like you don't always need to steal-raise with hands that are only decent.

It's all about selective aggression, and knowing when to lay off. As my old man liked to say, "Son, beat the horse until it winds up and kicks you in the nuts."



Mecos,

I just had to laugh at your comment about us talking a good game and playing like week-old shit...so true, so true.

-TW
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Postby Nortonesque » Mon May 23, 2005 1:10 am

One thing I like to do on a table where an EP raise often just takes the blinds (crypto, I'm looking in your direction), is raise occasionally from EP with suited connectors. I especially will do this if my image is tighter than usual (i.e., I haven't been getting many hands). You'll often either win the blinds or win on a continuation bet, and when you hit a hand and showdown it does wonders for getting paid off on future big hands.
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Postby striker2550 » Mon May 23, 2005 1:17 am

Norton,

I too occasionally do the same thing, but I use medium/small prs or preferably Axs. But its still the same play.

P.S.--I hate to say this, but I think TW's post could be good enough to put on the front page of the forum as an article. Dang, that hurt. :)
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Postby MecosKing » Mon May 23, 2005 1:33 am

NorthViewBTP: poor old ED
NorthViewBTP: from gun totin beer swiller
NorthViewBTP: to limp wristed defender of fagdom
NorthViewBTP: ALL THINGS TO ALL MEN
NorthViewBTP: IS THE SAME AS NO THINGS TO ANY MAN
--------------------
Mekos King: NV ignoring
Jimmy BTP: he's ignoring me too
Jimmy BTP: obv fell asleep in his colostomy bag
Jimmy BTP: running shite everywhere
---------
neelguru: I gave up politics when I was 6
neelguru: Im dedicating the rest of my life to getting unstuck
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