You always gotta put him on the nuts, period. Trust me, this rule will save you alot of money in the long run. Mizors that do that crap make the stone cold minimum off thier hands. Except this time, the mizor tricked my ass, and i feel like a donk. Okay, never mind i posted coming in, and never mind i called the raise with nine three offsuite (hey i was gettin like, what, 10 to 1 or something retarded like that!) --

Stuck4Lyfe posts big blind [$10].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Stuck4Lyfe [ 9s 3d ]
no_me_jodas folds.
IHateUFucer calls [$10].
Stuck4Lyfe checks.
>You have options at Table 66174 (6 max) Table!.
poker4bud raises [$20].
Aces_on_ice folds.
KelownaKid calls [$10].
IHateUFucer calls [$10].
Stuck4Lyfe calls [$10].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Kc, 3s, 3c ]
KelownaKid checks.
IHateUFucer checks.
Stuck4Lyfe checks.
poker4bud checks.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 8d ]
KelownaKid checks.
IHateUFucer bets [$20].
Stuck4Lyfe calls [$20].
poker4bud calls [$20].
KelownaKid folds.
** Dealing River ** [ 5s ]
IHateUFucer checks.
Stuck4Lyfe bets [$20].
poker4bud raises [$40].
IHateUFucer folds.
Stuck4Lyfe raises [$40].
poker4bud raises [$40].
Stuck4Lyfe calls [$20].
poker4bud shows [ Kd, Ks ] a full house, Kings full of threes.
Stuck4Lyfe doesn't show [ 9s, 3d ] three of a kind, threes.
poker4bud wins $302 from the main pot with a full house, Kings full of threes.

I was planning to CR the field on the flop since i had perfect position for that (i was one to the right of the mizor that raised) - and then when the mizor checked, i put him on either AK or AA (Very slim chance because he bets those), absolutely nothing like A5sooted (also a very slim chance because even into a field like htis, most mizors will bet absolutely nothing if they raised preflop- also, he raised after a million limpers which is not something you do without a big hand) and like 90% i had him on KK. BUT- when the one mizor bet the turn, i flat called to see what he did expecting him to raise the field, and he just called! At that point i put him on QQ or something besides the stone cold nuts which i assumed he had earlier, and then donked off the max on the river.

The moral of the story is
a) I HATE MIZORS
b) when the preflop raisor checks, ya always gotta be suspicious, esp in a short handed game, and
c) Slow rolling your big hands is usually stupid because your not givin anyone a chance to overplay thier smaller hands (like i did)

I agree with mecos....about watching out for a preflop raiser who checks the flop. Usually, they will look for a check-raise, which i tend to fall for. Perfect example would be like a 3 way pot preflop and then the preflop raiser checks, 2nd guy checks, its to me i'll bet and then preflop raiser immediately raises. My experience playing limit 6max isn't that much, only about 4 months...but from what i've seen, very few players are capable of making this move at low limits without a pretty solid hand. Of course it depends on your read, but 8 out of 10 times the guy is usually holding a very strong hand..

i don't know how it is at 10/20 though lol...i would imagine people get pretty creative and are able to pull off those check-raise bluffs.

What is the advantage to not finding out where you are on the flop? If you lead out there and he cr's you, havent you gotten the same info cheaper? If he crs you on the flop, can you let this go?

It seems like you played a bad hand OOP, hit a dream flop that was dead to 1 big hand and a bunch of odd broadway-3 holdings (q-3 raising?) and killing everything else.
If you bet the flop, dont you give him a chance to lay down AA? Besides, if you give a free turn, doesnt that give a big PP that missed the chance to smoke you? What are you going to do if the turn is another broadway card? If he raised with QQ and then check down, and a queen came on the turn, you are equally screwed and dont know where you are.

He is in a position where only 3 cards could possibly give him problems (the two remaining aces and the case 3) and anything else just improves people willing to bet into him, so the flop check really does not matter to him, nor does the turn call.

I just dont see, on the flop, how either A)trying to get off a cr or B) trying to avoid a cr helps in any way at all.

-Jus

Jusk, I'm not sure you know what you're saying. We don't want him to lay down AA here, we want him to bet and hold onto that. A lead out here will probably cause a the PFR to raise and shut out the field, not what we want as we have most almost have everyone dominated right now.

The PFR just hit the flop, he's not worried about any cards to hurt him.

He can't check-raise us in position, that makes not sense. MK isn't folding here anyways, besides the preflop call I think he plays the hand alright before the river.

Gotcha on the position, forgot MK was in the BB.

I still dont see the advantage in not leading the flop. How is that not giving any non K big pair a chance to catch up? Also, isnt that giving anyone chasing the flush a chance to get there?

I guess I dont understand the advantage of giving a potential free card to 3 opponents out of position, when any A,K,Q or club has the potential to counterfit the hand. Flopped trips is a good hand, but that seems like an iffy play.

If you put the PFR on a non KK big hand, is it not better to be playing HU than playing 4 handed, particularly when you have already put 1 person on a big pair?

Say MK leads, the PFR raises, the other two fold. If MK 3 bets and the PFR caps, is that not a better place to see that the PFR really likes his hand (as opposed to the river, when MK has already commited another 2-3 big bets before going on his poop flinging spree)? Is the average 10/20 player so bad that they are going to put MK on anything besides a 3 when he CR (and caps if the PFR 3 bets) that flop without having the stone cold nuts (or the case 3, in which case MKs kicker is middle of the road)?

Maybe this is a limit nuance that I need to pick up, but I just dont see how the possibility of giving a free card with a very good, but not great, hand is a standard play. If the flop were something like 733 or 1033 rainbow, I think it would be much safer. Besides, why not check behind if you just flopped the top boat? If you are the PFR, you want the flush to get there and you want to give anyone with the 3 to boat up or decide you are full of it.

MK checks, PFR bets, SB calls, MK cr, PFR calls, SB calls. Is this what you are looking for? Does this happen often enough to justify the (potential) free card? If you put him 90% on KK, how are you not digging in any deeper by not defining the hand on the flop. If he 3 bets and/or calls the cap, that seems like it pushes the needle from 90% to 99% a lot cheaper than on the river.

Am I still missing something here?

-Jus

Problem is you are putting him on such a big hand. 6max 10/20 limit on the button raise could really mean just about anything. I wouldn't be too happy to see a K turn, but an A or Q turn is not really a concern. Yeah the flush draw worries me a bit, but again you can't be flush paranoid at 6 max (or full ring for that matter).

Also the PFR will almost always continuation bet too, which is why this works. Unless he flops the top boat, which is the reason MK posted this.

Some may put MK on a 3, but he could also be on the flush draw (another great way to play a flush draw in this case), and that won't stop them from calling down with any K, AA and probably QQ, JJ, 1010.

Gotta remember there are 2 players in between MK and PFR, makes a significant difference.