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How to get full value?

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How to get full value?

Postby Kalle » Tue Feb 15, 2005 5:05 pm

I feel I have been playing too aggressive lately and not getting full value for some of my big hands:

NL $2/4.

#1. I have [Kd][9d] in BB. Two limpers, SB folds. Flop comes [Td][7d][6h]. I bet pot. Loose passive player calls. Turn is the [4d]. I bet pot again and he folds. My bet almost told him I had the flush... should I bet less or perhaps just check?

#2. I raise $16 in EP with KK. Four callers (3 of them behind me). Flop is KJ3r. BB (good player, $400) bets $48 into $79 pot, I raise to $120 and all folds. BB said he had KQ. Should I just call here?

#3. This hand really bothers me. I limp in EP with 33. Loose aggressive CU raises to $16, SB ($400, I have him covered) calls and I call. It was SB’s second hand at the table and I had never seen him before. Flop is [8h][2s][3h]. I bet $24 into $52 pot. Preflop raiser folds but SB raises to $76. I reraise to $248 and he folds. He probably had something like TT or JJ but I didn’t want to give him a free card if he was drawing. I didn’t win enough in this hand to justify my call preflop. Should I just have called his raise on flop, reraised minimum or reraised all in (which perhaps would look like a draw).

I left this session being up $300 in 100 hands but I think I could have got more value for some of these hands.

#4. NL $1/2. Very tough table with a lot of good players. One of them Stelvask (he wasn’t involved in this hand though). I limp UTG with KK. MP raises to $8 and gets two callers. I reraise to $36 and all folds.

I don’t expect to get in-depth analyses on all four hands. Just in general if you would play different (more passive).
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Postby Rhound50 » Tue Feb 15, 2005 5:23 pm

Hand 1- I think your play is ok, but what I dont like is the size of your bet when the flush card hits. Betting 1/2 of the pot seems like a better bet or make the same bet as the first bet. Not horribly played though.

Hand 2- That is your monster flop, the raise confuses me. What are you afraid of? Q/10 is the only real draw he could be on. You have position on him for the next two rounds of betting. No reason to give away the stregnth of your monster here.

Hand 3- Not a bad play here, though I probably would have slow played in one more card its really unlikely that he has a draw here, he check raised you from the SB so 2 pair is a more likely possiblilty. With his raise here he is pot committing himself and he has to play out of position. I would have just called and pushed on the turn is a blank hits. The good news is afte his $76 if he bets $100 or more on the turn he is pretty much pot committed to call a raise.

Hand 4- I really have nothing to say about this hand, you won a decent pot without having to see a flop and risk losing it. This is not a bad scenario when you get a big pair out of position.
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Postby Suhleafs » Tue Feb 15, 2005 6:26 pm

1st hand:

You're about 90% to have the best hand here. I guess your thinking is, to win a big pot you have to try and create a big pot. But I think if you slowly tried to milk the chips out of him, it would have worked. On the turn, I would have went for the weak lead, feigning weakness but when you have a really strong hand. A "good" player is likely to pick up on that and put in the big raise, so HE represents the made flush, while your weak lead is trying to convey that you had top pair.

2nd hand:

Gotta agree with Rhound here. You've hit a huge hand, . I don't think however you would have gotten paid off by the KQ even if you just smooth called it. The pot would have been 48 + 48 + 79= 175, less 2 more dollars of a rake, 173. This is assuming that no one else behind calls either. Now say his "miracle" queen comes off. That also makes a straight draw possible, or someone with queens may have hit their set. I really don't think he would lead off and bet the turn if the queen were to hit. He would have checked to you, I'm guessing you would try to milk about what, 80-90 on a bet from him? And if he's a good player, I don't think he would have called that. So really, I don't think the raise was too bad, you were wanting someone to have pocket jacks, so you'd be able to bust him.

3rd hand:

I would not have bet so small into that pot. I would have pulled a Doyle and overbet this pot. In the 60-70 range in the HOPE that the PF raiser has pocket aces or kings, in which I think he will reraise you, putting you on the draw, then he would be yours for the taking.

As for the re-raise. I can't agree with you on this hound. I highly doubt the SB would have called PF with 82, 83, 23, as you are suggesting he made 2 pair. I probably wouldn't have re-raised that much though. I would go for something in the 180-200 range.

4th hand:

I would only limp re-raise with one hand UTG, and that would be aces.
I even see people limp RR with queens and I find it pretty shocking. Now what IF, the MP actually did have aces? You would have reraised to 36, what if he comes back over the top for 80-90? Do you have the discipline to let it go, would you just call praying for a set, or would you push it in? I think most players would push all their stack in with Kings, if their intent was to limp RR in the first place.

Having said that, I think your raise was a bit too much. If I were to play the hand as you did, I would have raised to somewhere in the 25-30 range, just about enough to call with a hand like AK, JJ, and the like.
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Postby tooters » Tue Feb 15, 2005 6:44 pm

who is Stelvask and why was he mentioned
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Postby Mad Genius » Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:49 pm

Stelvask is a BTPer/UPFer and a solid NL player.

Anyway, onto the hands...

Hand 1, good flop play, but I would bet 1/2-2/3 pot on the turn and checkraise sometimes.

Hand 2, smooth call the flop and go for a big raise on the turn.

Hand 3, lead out for about $40 and smooth call SB's raise. Raise the turn.

Hand 4 is fine from what I can tell..

2/4 Stars is a lot more aggressive than 1/2 in general so you can usually play aggressively and get paid off more, even from the good players. It's too easy to put you on hands in hands 1-3 though so you need to mix it up more.

And this is off-topic but...how do you speak perfect English if you are from Denmark?
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Postby Suhleafs » Wed Feb 16, 2005 2:15 am

They learn and speak it in school at a young age. I've been there and you'd be surprised at how well Scandinavians can speak English.
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Postby Mad Genius » Wed Feb 16, 2005 2:45 am

Well, I grew up in Germany and German people speak English pretty well in general there, so I don't doubt that Scandinavians know how to speak English. But if you look at Kalle's writing, his grammar is better than President Bush's. It's a bit surprising.
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Postby kennyg » Wed Feb 16, 2005 3:01 am

I read through some responces quickly. here is my opinons:

Hand #1 I would agree with the majority here and bet less on the turn. Try to make it look like you're scared of the flush.It's still not a very bad play...but a less bet may make a passive player call.

Hand #2
You flopped the nuts...Def. just call this bet. You have position on this player and he is likely to lead out on the turn. The only thing that's scary is a straight draw of Q10. I wouldn't let hiim see the river unless he wants to pay dearly for it. If ti's called behind you look out for that straight.

Hand #3
I would either reraise all-in here or just slow call. Probably the latter, since you have position on the hand. Again, he is likely to lead out big here on the turn...trying to protect his hand. Hopefully you haven't run into a higher set...(which obviously wasn't the case here)

Hand #4
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Postby Kalle » Wed Feb 16, 2005 3:41 am

Thanks for the responses. I felt I played with my cards face-up in these hands.

The reason I raised my set of kings was that I think I would raise here with a pair of aces or AK. It would look suspicious if I called his raise and then raised him on turn. The only hands he would bet on that flop would be Kx or a set. I just had a feeling someone flopped a set. Obviously I was wrong.
Hand #4. I think I would fold my pair of kings if I limpreraised and someone came over the top. I am weak-tight, lol.

Why Stelvask is mentioned? No real reason. I just think it is fun to play at the same table as others from BTP and watch them play. And I think it improves my hand reading skills.

My English skills... lol... I don’t think my English is anywhere near perfect. I have a terrible accent. But Suhleafs is right. Scandinavians learn English at a young age
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Postby k3nt » Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:32 am

I have nothing to add to the terrific analyses already posted, so I'll ask a useless question.

What online site were these hands played at?

Thanks.
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Postby Kalle » Wed Feb 16, 2005 10:02 am

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Postby Gregor » Wed Feb 16, 2005 10:13 am

#2 reraise was the only questionable play...would have smooth called, indicated i was on a draw and see if i could get the guy antsy to take down the pot quickly.....

#3 raise i like, i am not a proponent of giving odds on draws, that set is void with a heart, take it down now if you can.....low sets can be dangerous....

You need to be very careful with your mindset of getting 'full value' and make sure you aren't giving opponents odds on draws, you might be in the best shape, but people hit 2, 4, 6 outers all the time...make them pay to see, its horrendous poker to allow an opponent odds on the draw when you have a made hand....
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