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24 outs!!?? Didn't even know that was possible

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24 outs!!?? Didn't even know that was possible

Postby k3nt » Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:09 am

I read a book when I first started playing poker -- I think it was Phil Hellmuth's book -- that mentioned how you could have the nuts on the flop in Omaha and yet be an underdog. Sort of counterintuitive, but it makes sense: with 2 more cards to come, and four cards in each hand, a big draw can have the edge over a made hand.

What I didn't realize until last night was that a better hand can be an underdog in hold em, even with just one card to come.

Paradise $25 NL last night.

Limp on the button with [5s][6d] with about 5 others.

Flop comes [8d][8c][7h]. Nice rainbow flop, open-ended, but the paired board makes me nervous. Somebody throws a smallish bet out there, I just call along with a couple of others.

Turn is the [9h]. I have the idiot end on a paired board. I feel like I have a decent hand, but I'm willing to drop it to seriously strong betting. Just as I decide that, UTG is all-in, about 2.5x the pot size. Folds to me.

Now a monkey all-in like this is totally common on Paradise. It can mean the nuts, or a solid hand that's not the nuts. It's rarely a complete bluff.

I consider my options. I'm pretty sure he has an 8, but what's his kicker? He could also have a higher straight, either T6 or JT. I finally decide that either I'm drawing dead, or else he has a lot of outs, so overall I don't like my chances, and fold.

He flashes [Th][8h] and takes it down. I was ahead!!! Dammit!!

And then I start counting up his outs.
Any 6 or J gives him the higher straight -- that's 7 outs (I have a 6).
Any 7, 9, or T gives him the boat -- that's 9 outs.
The 8 gives him quads -- 1 more out
Add in the [2h][3h][4h][5h][Qh][Kh][Ah], which all give him the flush -- 7 more outs.

24 outs, 44 cards in the deck. Craziness.
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Postby Stoneburg » Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:14 am

Here's the most out situation I can think of.

You: [Jh] [Th]
Him: [3c] 3[s]

Board: [8h] [9h] [9d] [5d]

This gives you...
9 outs for flush.
6 more for straight
6 for higher pair
6 for the 8 or 5 pairing and counterfiting his pair

That would give 27 outs and thus make you're high card hand a favorite over a pair going into the river :D
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