Random stuff.

I got set over setted twice today in less than 800 hands, blah. Since my computer crashed and I moved back to NL50 I have 2500 hands with my PL50 being at 6.9 BB/100, and my NL50 being at -9BB/100 blah, I mean, the cards haven't been great, but something must be going on with my game to have results this bad, I'll play it up to 10k hands and let you know how it's going, my NL100 try was disasterous, I played about 10k hands at break-even and I just couldn't take it anymore so I went back.

Here's a hand. Bad bluff?

I'm in the cutoff with

UTG raises to $2, all fold to me, I decide to call this raise, I know the implied odds aren't good with everyone folding in front of me but hell, I like suited connectors and if I hit I figure a decent shot of stacking this guy, plus I figure I have a pretty good nose for weakness and can take down pots even when I don't hit crap.



Flop:

At this point, I figure XXXX it I missed, I check/fold, so I click the little check/fold button(please don't give me crap about this )

Original raiser checks, I insta-check behind since I have the button checked.

Turn

Opponent leads for $4 (the size of the pot), at this point, him betting the size of the pot seems like he's just trying to pick it up, and I think I may be able to use my previous insta-check as a sign of strength. I raise to $15, figuring at this point there is no way he can call me without a Q which I really don't think he has.

Well, he calls, obviously at this point I figure I XXXXed up and I'm done with the hand. River comes a brick, he checks, I check, he shows QK.


I really try a lot to take unwanted pots or pots that have been bet into weakly, or bets that don't seem like a strong hand because I figure taking down those pots keeps me ahead of the game. I also figure it's alright to do this because I don't get attached to bluffs and try to keep going with them even when it's obvious the bluff has no chance of succeeding.

Was this a horrible attempt at this pot? Who just gives it up here?

I do - I think this is horrible

Looking at it street by street:
I don't call heads up with suited connectors. I just don't think you have the odds to do that.

Flop - the flop is rainbow and unconnected - a lot of players with a Q will check trying to get some action. You need to tread very carefully here. After he checks you might want to try a $2-$3 steal - but if he calls that you really are done - how can he call it on that board without a Q, 8 or high pair?

Turn gives you a str8 draw and I would bet 2/3 of pot if checked to here (assuming there had been no action on flop)
BUT he bets in to you and he bets the pot. Either he just picked up his own str8 or flush draw (str8 draw seems unlikely and any flush draw holding that he has will be beating you at the moment) or he has a made hand. You can't be comfortable if you low pair or a flush card comes so you are drawing to 4 outs. If he has a Q (AQ or KQ most likely) you are way behind. His play so far is also consistent with AQ or KQ...
You now try a big raise to buy the pot... I think this was exatly the wrong time to try to buy. The right time was on the flop although you really shouldn't have been in the hand at all... nasty chip-spewing I'm afraid..

I agree, I'm a douchebag, I just figured these plays work out so often that I was just dwelling on the one time that I got screwed, but I think it was bad overall.

I don't think you played that particular hand very well, and Excession is right that firing at the pot on the flop, and shutting down to all but the weakest of value bets on the river is proper. I do admire the raise on the turn though, with out the Q he can't easily call and might even fold KK or AA, thank the poker gods the river wasn't a 6.

I disagree with Excession on connectors heads up. If you both were over a fresh buy in I think calling with 67s is a fine play preflop. Last thing I want is an inflated pot with an ok draw, at least heads up the pot is going to be managable and the flush is more likely to hold up. I think you can make an argument for calling 3x raises at new buyins or a little less. Straights are sneaky and hard to see, most people think TPTK is much better off heads up and are unwilling to give it up and may entice you to peek at the turn with a soft bet at the flop. I see lots of opportunity to outplay them if I think the flop was not helpful if they hold overs and I have their respect. If I know the opponent to be very aggressive post flop more arguments can be made for folding heads up.

An example from .50/1 NL on how I like playing connectors heads up in a raised pot:

I limp 87o with a $300 stack, guy next to me makes it $3 and he has about $125-$150. I put him on overs AQ KQ AJ AK or something, either way I have room to gamble and can easily stack him if I hit.

Flop comes K95 two clubs and he bets another $3, this reeks of a continuation bet and I now think he most likely has AQ that missed or possibly the club draw, I opt to call and not take too much stock in the 8 or 7 should I connect, but figure out later if they are good if it hits or passively calling it down for the right price.

Turn is a 6. That is about as good as it gets, I opt to try a check raise and give him a chance to catch up if he has AQ. He leads for $10, which now makes me think he has the K, I raise to $30 and he pushes, my god maybe he has AK AA KK and I was way off on this overs thing, I call he has KJo and is drawing dead. I got my full 10:1 and then some for making a monkey play with a gutshot.

Granted this guy was obviously a muppet, which is all the more reason to play connectors and take one off the top with a gutshot. Had a bunch of people tagged along the flop continuation bet would have been too much to call with a gutshot and I would assured that neither my 8 or 7 would be good. Getting my implied odds of 10:1 would be difficult, and I would have probably just folded the hand preflop and certainly on the flop unless he made the same fished up bet in a bigger pot.

My thinking on it is that you will often not have direct pot odds, rarely in no limit will you have an ideal situation like in fixed limit, but less people means easier to get at least even money implied odds should you complete your draw, and most likely better than even money unless they have nothing, they raised they are supposed to have something. In a raised pot with many limpers you are going to have to flop the goods or play a draw very fast, or try to control the pot in some way, which is going to be tough. The more people calling the raise the more sketchy your hand gets and the more likely if you are getting "odds" it is for big % of your stack even if the odds are proper to try to suck out even if you are only calling big half pot bets with an open ended straight or flush draw. I like the cheaper smaller draws in a raised pot, and then making sure that I try to get full implied odds when I do hit from a weak opponent that has trouble letting go of one pair.

rdale - could you post your BB/hand with say 76s in raised pots with 2 players on the flop (raised not by you that is) for your current PT database?

My view is that heads up I am usually just chucking 4-5BB into the pot for the chance of chasing a draw or hitting a long-shot 2 pair or trips. I want multi-way action and preferably postion before I do that.

Of course if it's a very passive or weak-tight player and I have position I might 'make a play' but my standard play s not to call a raiser heads up with anything other than a PP or (if he is >3% PFR) AK...

Bet the flop when he checks to you.....or give up altogether. If you bet the flop it costs alot less than raising the turn and you get the same info about whether he will continue or not.