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Slow down with QQ here?

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Slow down with QQ here?

Postby Tokenizer » Thu Jun 09, 2005 9:32 am

The hand converter is blocked here at work so sorry about the HH.

I am new to this table and don't have a read on anyone, villian in this hand had just sat down an orbit or two ago as well.

I'm OTB.

Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00)
Table 'Lyot' Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Tokenizer ($98.90 in chips)
Seat 2: Phildo55 ($24 in chips)
Seat 3: The_Stain3 ($108.35 in chips)
Seat 4: DDSosy ($129.30 in chips)
Seat 5: rdlndsglFore ($152.55 in chips)
Seat 6: Fahmio ($98 in chips)
Seat 7: Undaunted ($282.45 in chips)
Seat 8: mackey239 ($34.10 in chips)
Seat 9: snoop180 ($98.50 in chips)
Phildo55: posts small blind $0.50
The_Stain3: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Tokenizer [Qs] [Qh]
DDSosy: folds
rdlndsglFore: folds
DDSosy leaves the table
Fahmio: raises $4 to $5
Undaunted: folds
mackey239: folds
snoop180: folds
Tokenizer: raises $10 to $15 <-- do you smooth call here? I wanted to eliminate KK or AA figuring he'd reraise with those hands
Phildo55: folds
The_Stain3: folds
Fahmio: calls $10 <-- This tells me he's not on a big pair - right? Give me a second, I'll ignore this information and think he still does... why, I don't know
*** FLOP *** [6c] [2d] [3c]
Fahmio: checks
Tokenizer: bets $20
Fahmio: calls $20 !?!?!? is he on JJ or TT? I would think my reraise tells him I'm playing a big pair
*** TURN *** [6c] [2d] [3c] [2h]
Fahmio: checks
Tokenizer: checks <-- gross, I know. I thought for sure he was just letting me do the betting for him and I'd better slow down. What do you do here?
*** RIVER *** [6c] [2d] [3c] [2h] [4c]
Fahmio: bets $16 <--- Bah! The only hand I figure he could have improved here was AcKc, with the pot laying me good odds I call
Tokenizer: calls $16
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Fahmio: shows [Ac] [Qc] (a flush, Ace high)
Tokenizer: shows [Qs] [Qh] (two pair, Queens and Deuces)
Fahmio collected $100.50 from pot
Tokenizer said, "lol"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $103.50 | Rake $3
Board [6c] [2d] [3c] [2h] [4c]
Seat 1: Tokenizer (button) showed [Qs] [Qh] and lost with two pair, Queens and
Deuces
Seat 2: Phildo55 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: The_Stain3 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: DDSosy folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: rdlndsglFore folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Fahmio showed [Ac] [Qc] and won ($100.50) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 7: Undaunted folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: mackey239 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: snoop180 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Let me hear it! I get into these situations too often and this being on stars I thought he was letting me take the lead to trap me. I slowed down and let him catch and then paid his mini-bet off on the river (If you're going to draw at least get value when you hit!?!?!).

So, whats your action on the turn? Do you continue to jam here or what? I was prepared to fold to a large river bet putting him on KK but I was way off and cost myself the pot my shutting down on the turn.
"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing."
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Postby Tiburon » Thu Jun 09, 2005 10:21 am

Ok--my analysis--

You may have been better off betting the pot on the flop ($31.50), which would have made him think. If he smooth called and you didn't believe he was on KK or AA, you know he's drawing at that point. I would have made him eat those cards on the turn. No doubt about it--you push on the turn and he goes away. If not, he's nuts, and you're paying him off anyway.

The pot on the turn is $71.50. You have $63.90 left at that point, and he'd have to call $63.90 for a shot at $135.40 (2.12-to-1). If he's drawing to a flush (even assuming you didn't hammer the flop), he's needs 4.11-to-1 to call. Again, if he calls, you're paying him off anyway and he's nuts.

All your turn check did was show him a free card. When someone checks to me on the turn and I'm even remotely behind, I sit back and giggle and think, "I can't believe he's letting me beat him..." The only rational hands that have you beat at that point were KK, AA, A2s, 66, 33, or 22. He's not calling that raise pre-flop with anything other than KK or AA of that group, and you didn't have him on either of those. You have to assume you're ahead there.

That being said, the hand's done. Keep it out of your head, and learn from the mistake. Good luck!
"...Every time you cold call, god kills a puppy."
--JJSCOTT2

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Postby Tiburon » Thu Jun 09, 2005 10:23 am

And by the way, that $16 bet on the river wasn't too bad. He figured he'd throw it out, knowing he had you beat. If you call, great. If you miss the flush on board and raise, even better--then he gets your whole stack. Any larger of a bet just screams, "I have the flush!"
"...Every time you cold call, god kills a puppy."
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Postby Rhound50 » Thu Jun 09, 2005 10:39 am

With deeper stacks, I would be ok with the slowdown on the turn, but since you have less left than the pot you need to put it in on the turn, if he has a boat than so be it, the turn card didnt hurt you hand at all in fact it could have helped it, on the off chance that he called you with rags and flopped two pair, it also give you more outs on the off chance that he flopped the str8. You are going to call his all in bet, getting better than 2:1 on your money, so you might as well move in.

I disagree with tiberon, the reason that this player bet $16 into you was not a value bet, it was a blocking bet,with a pair on the board he is scared that you have a boat and id hoping to get to showdown as cheap as possible. I doubt he folds to an all-in, but this is a sign of weakness not stregth.
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