Decided to put some time into prima since i havent played in a while. I jst wanted to point something out in this hand.

2/4 Prima

Opponent and I both have right about $400.

Get JJ in EP. I limp. Guy behind me..a regular who was having a shouting match with me (he was calling fish stupid and etc...so of course i had to defend the fish.)..anway he raises it up to $24. Folded to me...I call.

FLOP $50
64J rainbow

I bet $40. He raises to $120. I call.

TURN
64J4 completeing rainbow

I check.... opponent bets $136....I move all-in for about $120 more which he calls.


He shows QQ, gets no help and I take it down.


I believe his mistake here was betting the turn. I made a nice pot sized lead...then still called a big raise on the flop. I was in UTG+1...so right now he should be thinking I might have, AA, KK, QQ (unlikely but still), JJ, lower set.. He might be beating something like KJ or AJ

I think he should have checked and tryed to get a cheap showdown. What do you guys think?? Would any of you check here?

I completely agree with you Kenny.

Not to hijack this thread but the hand I played the other day against Mofflowis reminds me exactly of this one except I played it differently.

$5/$10...I raise to $45 with KK. Only Mofflowis calls. He plays like 8 tables and plays very tight as you know. He will not call that raise out of position w/o a pair. (hes the SB)

Pot $100. The flop is T85. He leads out for $80. The good players know that leading with a set is a great play because the raiser will raise. Now, me knowing that also, I just call. He wants me to raise. Im not raising. He has a set or JJ, QQ agree?

Pot $260. The turn is a 3. He bets $160. I decide to call him down so I call
Pot $580. River a blank. He bets $300 and I call. Of all things....he has 33. Now, if I had raised the flop, he would fold, but even if I knew for a fact he had 33, raising isnt correct is it when he only has 2 outs? There has to be some way to combat the "lead into the raiser with a set" play.

If I raise to $200 on the flop he will call with a set. I could check behind on the turn and call the river I suppose. In this hand, his miracle outdraw made me look real stupid for not raising the flop, but i think riasing is wrong against a guy like him who I know has a pair. One of us has 2 outs and I dont know which one of us it is.

If he missed his set and you raise him, you will win as much as you will if you just call but you won't risk getting sucked out on is how I figure it. Unless he actually leads on the turn too even when he doesn't catch his 2-outer, which seems very unlikely if he's a tight player.

So (mini?) raising and folding to a re-raise seems like the right play. Or am I talking out of my rectum here? I only play low stakes...

I don't like the idea of calling down all the way. Especially not against good players. It's a situation where you are hoping your big pair is good but in reality you have no clue whether you do or not because you didn't put in the necessary bet/raise to get information. A good player may lead the fop representing a set but if he is called he will most likely be done. You won't see Mofflowis betting the turn and again the river if he doesn't improve his 33 and since it is obvious that you are willing to call down with the big pair (in his mind), it's a situation where it's most likely a losing play to continue calling down bigger and bigger bets. Against manaics and habitual bluffers I find this play to work very well, but against a tight guy, I don't like it much. I think you can minraise the flop and pretty much make it clear that you have JJ-AA because he will fold if he's losing and he will call/reraise if he is winning. At this point you can check/fold if he calls (since I assume him to be a good TAG).

Well, first, to Kenny's hand: If I'm QQ here against a good player, I make the raise and, if called, am done with the hand unless I hit a Q.

To get this thread even more "hijacked," I had one the other day that got me thinking. Good player with QQ (he says, and he was probably honest) raises to my 55, where I hit a set. I bet pottish ($100) into his overpair, and he just folds!!! Well, this guy is asking for trouble imo. I'm not going to do it very often (he only shows up once in a while), but I'm going to bluff this player to a raise occasionally (and checkraise a real set--maybe check-call or minimum raise).

To ice: Very nice hand on this subject. My real question would be whether this guy has ever seen you make unusual moves like this. Also, (and I guess with your inclination not to raise AK, it's probably a particularly bad read on you) I've seen some players try to bet their little pairs into a possible missed AK, which does work once in a while. I used to do it on occasion (really more of a bad "frustration play" than anything else, I think), but it's just not good imo (maybe if you're really struggling for minimal edge sometimes).

Anyhow, I really think the way to go on that one (don't know what kind of battles you have against this guy) is to obviously lay down unimproved AK to the bet, but, in the given situation, fire out $320 or so. I really wouldn't depart from ABC play against that guy for quite a while in this kind of situation. And, by the way, he doesn't stack you with his 33 here when he does hit, because if he calls the $320, you're done without improvement (or at least I am).

I really think raising the overpair is just necessary, whether or not they have a set, for bluff prevention. It essentially makes the bluff into a very expensive experiment if it fails. I guess I should say one additional thing about the "done with the hand" part. If you start suspecting him of bluffing, then I don't think it's necessarily bad to move in on the turn once in a while, too. But I also don't think a tight player is normally going to get involved in that kind of nonsense. I think he'll just fold it on the flop pretty consistently (as he should)--and donated an additional $80 here for no real reason.

@ Ice

Seems to be a raise in order only from the stand point of information

if you throw out a $160 raise you get a lot of information on what he has. Since you have posistion if he calls you know you are done. But if you only win that situation once every 2 or 3 times you have to be making money, right? It's just over 2 to 1 to call so he can make a mistake in calling (most likely he won't if he is a good player) or he has you beat, but it costs a lot less money in the long run. You may lose $240 there ($80 for the call, another $160 for the raise) but that still is better than the, what is it, $540 you lost?

I know I don't play at your level in terms of money or skill but seems to me raising gives you a lot more information to go on for future rounds, just my two cents