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Uncomfortable spot with KK

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Uncomfortable spot with KK

Postby Kalle » Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:16 pm

Last edited by Kalle on Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Stelvask » Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:24 pm

-[4h]-
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Postby Kalle » Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:28 pm

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Postby stealthtt385 » Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:28 pm

A[d]K[d]
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Re: Uncomfortable spot with KK

Postby rdale » Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:47 pm

Last edited by rdale on Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Smokin'Al » Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:31 pm

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Postby Michael127 » Fri Jul 22, 2005 6:13 pm

short answer I think is raise the flop.

in your spot, fold here.
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Postby Kalle » Sat Jul 23, 2005 3:01 am

I like Smokin'al's thoughts.
But I'm still not sure about a flop raise. I think they are bad enough to go all in with QQ. I also dont like raising for information.

I didnt know what tho do. I decided/hoped that UTG+1 wasnt smart enough to lead into me with a set (most players will checkraise / check call with a set here right?). Then I hoped that the big blind thought for a long time because he really had a tough decision to make (QQ/KK?). And my flop call looked weak. 2.1-1 in pot odds. I called. Big blind folded. UTG+1 had KJs and I won.
Obviously that doesnt mean the call is correct in the long run. I mean, he bet into two players, when it was obvious they both had him beat... Not all players are that stupid.
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Postby Smokin'Al » Sat Jul 23, 2005 4:24 am

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Postby Aisthesis » Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:05 am

A few thoughts: First, KJs doesn't surprize me in the least. I see it all the time. And, to my amazement, the other night, a guy who I'm SURE would have played KJs to a raise, proudly showed his 22 laydown vs. a raised QQ.

It's absolutely shocking to see that people don't realize that sets are the way to crack the big pairs. I think it's the vast majority. Instead, they think, "Hey, I can hit my K or J and have a hand, so let's see the flop!"

Anyone have a more exact name for such players other than just "fish"? I'm inclined to call the big card lovers for lack of anything better, and I think it's a very important read to have--if they lay down their little pairs to the raise, then you really don't have much to worry about here!

As to the hand: If you're going to re-raise KK here (and I'm becoming increasingly skeptical about this play), the flat call to my mind indicated QQ or JJ (raising KJs seems fairly common, although actually calling a big re-raise with it seems insane--on the other hand, I saw a guy the other day re-raise KTs to $850 PF... so, to each his own, I suppose). JJ is obviously dangerous, but QQ also has no reason to slow down. Hence, I think you definitely do need to raise the flop. When he moves in, I'm going to have trouble knowing just what to do here.

Your re-raise cost your opponent $36. So, if he had any credibility, I'd hate to lose more than something like $250 on my big pair (quite aside from the AA danger). With a $54 bet into a roughly $110 pot, you would need to raise to about $200 on the flop, leaving you with a pot of around $500 (in case of a call) and right at $240 in your stack, if I'm getting all the arithmetic right. Well, in my book, that means a re-raise is already all-in (you can't bet the turn if you raise adequately). You could make a slightly less committed raise to maybe $150, being a little more wishy-washy on the flop in order to have some stack-depth left.

Without a read (and the fact that this guy played KJs this way give me a definite read, although the AA hand you noticed earlier doesn't give any indication of this sort), I absolutely hate KK here.

That's the reason I probably just flat call the raise, then, on that flop, you have the stack-depth to easily make a big flop raise. I will admit that I probably end up laying the best hand down either way, simply because I can't hande the following with KK:

He makes it $18, and I flat call. Maybe we get two more players for a pot of $72. He bets out something like $40, and I make it $200. He moves in. I don't think I can really call that without knowing he's an idiot.
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Postby Aisthesis » Sat Jul 23, 2005 10:33 am

I will say one thing about this, if one is using ice's "power play," which for the moment is just going to be my standard KK play: It does show the value of making it a true all-in if the all-in isn't completely absurd relative to pot-size.

In this case, if I'm getting all the figures together right, while YOUR stack is objectively too large to commit it all, your opponent's isn't. So it does make sense to just raise HIM all in right there on the flop, I think. KK is enough hand to do so imo, and this move has a lot of merit both against idiots (like this KJ, who is liable to call) and against better players, who are under a lot of pressure with AA.
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