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What is your action?

Postby odogg » Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:23 pm

Last edited by odogg on Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby iceman5 » Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:28 pm

I wouldve reraised the flop, because I think one of them (probably SB) has the [Ks].

How is BB leading? YOU are the BB. Is the SB leading? And is HE the big stack?

Stack sizes please?
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Postby MVPSPORTS » Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:44 pm

Yeah, your hand history is a little confusing, but I don't see SB leading out if he's got the nut flush... I think I'd raise his turn bet, but it's kinda hard to give an amount without knowing their stack sizes...

Ice, isn't it dangerous reraising a minraise with a draw that isn't even the nuts...? The people that are gonna call your reraise are Kxs, 2pr, trips... Basically everyone that has you beat... Say you reraise to approx. $45, and your flush card doesn't hit the turn... Or it does (like it did), and you get led into AGAIN...?
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Postby odogg » Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:58 pm

Sorry.

I am the BB.

The small blind is who led out and he has a 400 dollar stack. The small stack has a total of 80 dollars. I have 188.

He pushed out 15 on the turn.
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Postby iceman5 » Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:20 pm

I think he has the [Ks], but I call the small bet and hope he makes another small river bet.

I really like to reraise the flop though. You probably wouldve gotten rid of him. Or if he has a set, he mightve pushed in.
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Postby odogg » Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:33 pm

I didn't think he would smooth call the min raise unless he had the flush draw is why I didn't raise the flop. Smooth calling a raise makes me think flush especially when the player is out of position.

I thought briefly about pushing the small stack all in but that may have been the only way for me to take this hand.

He had K7 spades. I lost the 15 dollar turn and 40 dollar bet on the river.
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Postby eliteprodigy » Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:42 pm

NH. I would've lost a lot more on this hand. Holding the second nuts I would've raised his bet on the turn and called an all-in back at me. Hes playing from the SB and would likely take his same line with a smaller flush as well.
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Postby Jav » Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:31 pm

In situations like this I tend to prefer checking the flop. That way I get to see the action of my 3 opponents before I act. It would let you get away cheap if a lot of action happens on the flop.

Once you hit your flush I would raise the small turn bet from the SB. I'm willing to believe you are ahead, but would hate to see a spade or a paired board on the river.
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Postby kennyg » Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:38 pm

I would have called the turn bet.
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Postby bkholdem » Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:42 pm

Maybe this is a flaw in my game but I'd worry about rerasing the flop without a more well defined plan on how to proceed from there. I can see the small blind cold calling that raise on the flop with a set as well as a flush draw.

If we take the reraise route, what is the plan when small stack calls (or folds) to a raise and now the sb pushes or bumps it up considerably killing odds to draw? Clear fold or push?

What if he smooth calls and lead on a non flush turn?
What if he smooth calls and leads (now into a heafty pot) on a flush card?

How do people see the EV in a big pot vs. small pot in this situation. I definately don't have much gamble in me and dont like to play around in a multi way pot raised on the flop and cold called by another player when all I am holding is a non nut draw. If they are gamblers it isn't so much of a problem but right here I have no clue.

Is there more info available? I would really like to have a feel for the other players in this hand. When opponents cold call raises I get frightened. I usually assign considerable strength to a cold call of a raise. This could be the draw wanting to keep the pot multiway for the odds or it could be a set in my mind. Does 2 pair really want to play games here in the small blind?

In thinking about Ice's comments about trying to knock sb off a flush draw, how miuch do we reraise? And what if he calls there? We only have a draw and if sb bails we still need to hit to beat the small stack, correct? So is it preferable to raise with the second best draw (going with Ice's thoughts) to get heads up?

My default is to keep the pot small here. I'm really hoping to hit on the turn and have the sb check to me. Actually I wish the sb 3 bet and knocked me off the draw so my decision on how to proceed is easy.

I guess it goes without saying I haven't moved up to high stakes yet. Is anyone in this forum more weak tight than me? lol
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Postby Aisthesis » Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:37 pm

Hmmmm... several issues on this one.

First of all, the obvious: Betting the pot on the flop, if you bet it.

But there are several problems here, I think. First, you're not drawing to the nuts (although close--but, believe me, when I played KXs a while back, I ran into AXs often enough to make a big difference).

Given that fact, I'd need some kind of reason either to bet out or to check-raise. If the opponents are weak-ish/loose-ish, I'd like to checkraise because the pot isn't big enough yet to be truly worthwhile. On the other hand, with an A on the board and 5 seeing the flop, it's rather hard to imagine that someone isn't going to have an A.

If you do bet it out, I still think betting pot is much better than the weak bet.

And I'd almost automatically re-raise big against a short-stack, but SB makes matters a lot more complicated, particularly since SB has you covered. I really don't want to lose my stack on this hand.

Basically, I think there are two ways to play it:

1) Aggressively, if a bluff (with outs) seems like a good way to go.

2) Defensively, just check-calling if you get odds to the draw but also realizing that you don't have the nuts if you make it (difficult here, since it is second to the nuts).

The way you played it, I think just flat calling the turn isn't too bad. If yet another spade falls, you can even think of laying down to a big bet on the river, but if not, I'd lose more on the river--but not my whole stack, I think.

This one is pretty hard to play.
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Postby iceman5 » Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:34 pm

Although I was right about the SB having the [Ks]. I thought the flop was all spades so I withdraw everything I said.
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Postby Aisthesis » Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:05 am

I actually think there are 3 ways to play this hand, all of which have advantages and disadvantages according to what you really want to achieve at the table and how the table is playing:

1) Bet out pot. Ok, you get mini-raised from a short-stack. The really logical thing for short-stack to have is some kind of A, let's say AJ, but 2-pair is possible (and won't lay down). In any case, the table looks fairly loose to me with 5 in the hand and a big stack keeping KXs in SB.

Then you get a flat call from a big stack. This is really the issue here imo. I don't have any problem coming over the top of small stack with this good but non-nut draw. So, when it comes back you have a choice of raising seriously enough for AJ really to want to lay down or just flat calling. With the show of strength from big stack, I prefer flat calling and playing the hand defensively from there. If I hit the flush, everything will depend on big stack, who then made a small bet--wanting a caller. While it's very tempting to raise (and I probably would have found it difficult at the table not to do so), I think flat calling that bet is the best way to go.

2) Wait and see out of position. My real intention would be a checkraise semi-bluff, looking a lot like 2 pair from BB. In this situation, I really prefer this way of playing the hand aggressively because it gets you a bigger pot (it's very likely someone has the A, and if they don't, ok, you get a free card) but at the same time doesn't get you in quite as deep as it would if you bet out, then have to re-raise. If the table was just super-passive (people tending to flat call on AJ-ish), then betting out would probably be better--essentially also getting a cheap card with a fair amount of deceptive value.

So, let's say short-stack bets $10, SB flat calls, then you have a pot of $30 and can checkraise to $50 or so. If you get called, I think you have to go somewhat defensive from there, but my real hope would be to just take down the pot. Or if you could isolate the short-stack, you'd also be good. Unfortunately, that's not going to happen because in a potential 3-way pot, KXs is simply going to call. I guess the checkraise is probably actually best mainly against weakish players.

3) Play the hand defensively and more like a straightforward draw, checkcalling if given correct odds, as you probably will be. While I'm not terribly fond of defensive play in NL, it's not all that bad an option here, as it simply controls the amount of money likely to go in. You really only have 1 out to the nuts (Ks), and that one in this case isn't going to come because big stack holds it.

I don't think any of these three strategies is necessarily bad. And I guess I should even mention a fourth that I don't think is completely wrong: checkfolding. I think I'd only go for the checkfold if it's a very high-action table where I expect to have to call an all-in on the river if I stay in the hand, and with the second-nut draw, I might have trouble resisting the temptation even then. I don't know, maybe that isn't a viable option at all. It's a lot of hand not to see the turn with...

Anyhow, there are definitely worse spots with which to lose your stack (and I've definitely done it before), so I wouldn't worry about it too much if you did.
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