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Brilliant or fishy?

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Brilliant or fishy?

Postby APerfect10 » Mon Mar 28, 2005 1:25 am

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (10 handed)

SB ($77.76)
Hero ($43.65)
UTG ($36.65)
UTG+1 ($116.85)
UTG+2 ($58.95)
MP1 ($44.5)
MP2 ($73.3)
MP3 ($67.18)
CO ($50)
Button ($31.65)

Preflop: Hero is BB with [9h], [9c]. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
4 folds, MP2 calls $0.50, 3 folds, SB (poster) completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($1.50) [3s], [8d], [3d] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2, MP2 calls $2, SB folds.

Turn: ($5.50) [6s] (2 players)
Hero bets $4, MP2 calls $4.

River: ($13.50) [Th] (2 players)
Hero bets $4, MP2 calls $4.

Final Pot: $21.50

Results in white below:
Hero has 9h 9c (two pair, nines and threes).
MP2 has Ts As (two pair, tens and threes).
Outcome: MP2 wins $21.50.


After this guy sucks out on me he goes on to state how I should've raised pre flop with 99 UTG and thats what I get for not raising and how his calling me down and eventually sucking out was such a brilliant play.

I typically do not talk while playing but his comments irked me. To me this guy is a huge fish who thinks he's brilliant. He goes on to explain how he had no way of losing because he knew I wasnt on a 4. lol.

Please confirm.
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Postby Yogadude » Mon Mar 28, 2005 1:52 am

Try to ignore this fellas table talk..most people think they know more about poker than they really do.

There are 2 ways to play this hand. The way you played it is just a way of playing with lower variance. If you raise with the 99 you are going to need a favorable flop since you are out of position I dont know the numbers but you will get a 9 on the flop or a 8 or lower flop not as often as you would like. Add that to the fact that most 8 under flops are going to be sequenced and you also have straight draws do deal with. By not raising you got a guy to put a bunch of money in the pot as an underdog. Your only mistake there was getting unlucky.

Sometimes you would want to raise with the hand. Giving the SB a free play would be very bad in limit holdem but not quite as bad in NL. I would raise 4-5X the BB and see if I can just pick up the money that is out there. If you do get called you need to be good at playing the flop. Basic strategy for me would be to bet any flop if I had one caller and with 2 callers I would still bet the favorable flops but check and fold if an overcard flop comes.

There is something to be said about getting value with a good pair like Nines but they are pretty much the same thing as jacks and tricky to play.

Good luck

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Postby Rhound50 » Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:15 am

I might have made a bigger turn bet but you really didnt misplay this at all. Raising with 9's out of postion is not a good play, the only thing that you did wrong was letting a calling station draw out on you. $hit happens in this game.
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Postby rdale » Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:41 am

No, you probably shouldn't have raised it up in the BB with 99. Here are some reasons to raise and check or smooth call in early with weak pairs.

I raise this up in the big blind under these conditions...

It is me, SB and button and maybe one other weak player with no concept of hand selection in the hand. The reason being, I likely have the best hand now, weak player is likely to fold, and the button is likely to have any two looking to steal when checked to on the flop, while the small blind could also have a random hand or one face card. I don't raise 99 or TT with a calling station present in the hand though, and it looks like you had one here unless they are calling raises and folding the flop a lot.

Another time I might raise:
I tend to open up and try a more loose aggressive game from the big stack and raising nines out of position is possibly one of the better hands I might be raising if I was playing with the triple buy in, quadruple buy in and I'm raising 77 with position and 88 out of position. The reasoning for this with position is a lot more solid than out of position, but out of position you risk a very small % of your stack are likely to take the pot with a continuation bet, effectively removing position from late position players. To play out of position like this you have to be decent at reading hands and shrug off loses pretty easily. 99 is an easier hand to play out of position than many that I might raise in the same spot. I haven't had a day in months where I got comfortable enough to play like this, either the opponents haven't been right, or I don't have the money on the table to play LAG.

When I don't raise:
A couple of early and mid position limpers slows me down. I raise it when I am playing a larger stack and willing to take more variance. The presence of tight passive players will slow me down as well, as I'm now looking to catch a set cheap and drill them, other wise play a smaller pot like you did.

Another time I won't raise:
When I have a fresh buy in that I'm trying to build up and I'm out of position. My plan with a fresh buy in is tight is right, get in cheap and attempt to build a stack with aggressive post flop play, saving aggressive preflop play for the real hands and weaker hands need position to play harder.
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Postby iceman5 » Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:04 am

You played fine up until the river. There is no reason to bet this river. Hands like this come up all the time.

Its much better to check and then call a modest bet.

If you bet the river and he has a draw that missed he'll fold. If you check, he might bet his draw then you call and win extra money

If he has A8 he might call your river bet, but he also might bet if you check.

If he has a small pair like 77...same thing.

If he has AT...same thing.

Theres no advantage to betting the river, but you will sometimes win more money when you check/call the river.
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Postby k3nt » Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:29 am

The guy's a calling station who thinks he's a great player. Get him in your fish book and play with him some more.

I hate to disagree with Iceman, but fwiw I like the bet on the river. I'm hoping Iceman will show me why my reasons for saying this are wrong. But here goes anyway.

By betting the river, you get to define the size of the bet, and you made it small, which is good. If you check, the guy may bet closer to the size of the pot, in which case you lose more if you call. And it's tough to fold even to a pot-sized bet on the river because he could be on a busted draw or AK or something. In my book, you rarely want to check the river after betting all the streets unless you're going to call even a big bet, because you are likely to induce a bluff - and bluffs tend to be pretty big. I hate to induce a big river bet unless I'm 80% sure I'm ahead when I call it. I could do it with a set, two pair, or an overpair on this board.

Also, with your bet on the river, you can fold the river if he re-raises here, saving you some money.

Also, an AK or even AQ (as well as 77, 55, etc.) may well call you down here, especially with that relatively small river bet. So this is not a clear case of only-a-hand-that-beats-you-calls-you. Yes, AK/AQ/77/55 type hands may also bet the river, but they very well may not.
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Postby Gregor » Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:38 am

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Postby Rhound50 » Mon Mar 28, 2005 12:20 pm

I actually like the river play here, a $4 bet works will vs a calling station or passive player and from his weak play, that seems to be his type of play. If he is an agressive player who calls to many bets I check call here. The other reason, that I dont mind this bet is there is a good chance he is a very passive player who is calling you down with top pair after the flop
in which case this is a nice value bet.
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Postby MVPSPORTS » Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:28 pm

Ice, wouldn't his river bet count as a blocking bet that you wrote about...? If you check to him and he bets $15, you're gonna have to fold, even if he didn't have anything... I think betting the $4 will warrant a call more than a raise, and if he raises big, you know you're dead and you can fold...

Would anyone have liked to see a larger turn bet? You have top pair on the board, and it may have made this fish, chasing the river "cause his ace high ain't never gonna get beat...", fold...
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Postby briachek » Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:41 pm

isn't a block bet more when you were out of position and calling bets but then bet out the river hoping the player behind you will just call assuming you might have hit a big hand so you get a cheaper showdown?
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Postby APerfect10 » Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:54 pm

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Postby DaHitDogg » Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:49 pm

I would have played all streets the same--except I probably would have made the mistake of making a larger bet on the river. The more I read about it the more I like the blocking bet you made there. If they didn't ever suck out they would never call--so chalk it up to bad luck and crack the guy later. Good post.
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