Advanced search

A TPTK Hand

Hand analysis. Post your trouble hands here

Moderators: iceman5, LPF Police Department

A TPTK Hand

Postby palman » Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:14 pm

I have AJ in the BB, and it's folded to the SB who makes it $12 to go. (blinds $2/$4) He steals alot of blinds. I call.

Pot $24.

Flop J 9 6 rainbow. SB leads out for $20, and I flat call.

Pot $64.

Turn: 8, completing the rainbow

SB checks, I make it $50 to go, and SB check raises me to $150.

Both of us have around $400 to start the hand, What do I do? Ignore my flat call on the flop as a potential mistake.
User avatar
palman
 
Posts: 206
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 12:27 pm

Postby Nortonesque » Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:21 pm

What is your table image?
User avatar
Nortonesque
Enthusiast (B&M & Online)
 
Posts: 1820
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:55 pm
Location: Oregon

Postby iceman5 » Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:26 pm

Under normal circumstances I would fold, but if he knows youre playing style then he could easily be making a move on you thinking you have nothing and I think you could make a case for moving in.

I have a bad feeling he has 88 though
iceman5 [As]
User avatar
iceman5
Semi Pro (Online)
 
Posts: 13875
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 6:49 pm
Location: Texas

Postby Mad Genius » Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:29 pm

I'm really scared of QT here. His line doesn't look like much of a bluff. If he didn't put you on anything, it seems like he would have lead the turn again. QT is the most obvious hand that would play it the way he did. I could also see JT being a possibility, as well as 98 and J8. EIther way, without a solid read I'm not willing to go broke with one pair here, especially when my opponent is taking such a strong line. I fold.
User avatar
Mad Genius
Semi Pro (B&M & Online)
 
Posts: 1105
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 12:38 pm

Postby Rhound50 » Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:35 pm

TPTK is tough in this situation, I think there is a decent chance you have the best hand but if you dont you have almost no draw and could be drawing dead to a set. What is your read on your opponant?
"Its a pink handbag not backpack damn it." Godlikeroy

"From playing full tilt I wanna smash every garden gnome I see. That travelocity commercial puts me on instant tilt."
User avatar
Rhound50
Semi Pro (B&M & Online)
 
Posts: 7304
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 12:15 am
Location: La Jolla, Ca

Postby droqqa » Sat Apr 02, 2005 8:03 pm

Palman -

I hate these type of steal situation hands and generally try to avoid them. I also hate being pushed around. Sort of a conflict of interest. I probably would have come over the top preflop, hoping to take it down right there. In these steal situations, I like to take control ASAP - making my opponent commit a lot of chips if he is going to bluff.

That said, I think you have to let this one go. This check-raise shows a lot of strength. He was confident that you would bet and doesnt care - I go ahead and lay this one down.

D
User avatar
droqqa
 
Posts: 1022
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 8:41 pm

Postby palman » Sat Apr 02, 2005 8:09 pm

My image was fine. I was not in LAG mode, and I had been quite tight
User avatar
palman
 
Posts: 206
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 12:27 pm

Postby palman » Sat Apr 02, 2005 8:17 pm

For those who say I should fold...... What if I hold AA instead of AJ? Again, ignore any "you messed up on the flop, preflop" considerations
User avatar
palman
 
Posts: 206
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 12:27 pm

Postby droqqa » Sat Apr 02, 2005 8:22 pm

If you hold AA instead - analysis doesnt change. The only hands you gain an advantage over are QQ and KK. Whatever I put the raiser on, it beats both AJ and AA.

D
User avatar
droqqa
 
Posts: 1022
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 8:41 pm

Postby palman » Sat Apr 02, 2005 8:37 pm

I Imagine the sentiment will be similar to that......

Well, this was a ficticious hand, odds are I'll be the SB, and I've just introduced you to my favorite bluff. Pretty much everyone agrees to fold TPTK and even an overpair. What does that say about the profitibility of the bluff?

So far, it has been used primarily as my favorite way to chip up in a tournament. I can either limp in the SB or raise preflop and it has the same effect. I imagine it can become quite useful in NL ring as well.

Droq - This is an example of "representing the hand" when bluffing. Check-calling on the flop and then check-raising on a paired board would be another example. If you really want to bluff on a particular hand, imagine you have the nuts and play it accordingly.
User avatar
palman
 
Posts: 206
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 12:27 pm

Postby TightWad » Sat Apr 02, 2005 8:51 pm

Palman,

Personally, I can see why this would be somewhat effective in a tournament...and the fact that most of the replies have voted for "fold" indicates it'd also work against solid players in a ring game. But do you really think it'd work against the less-solid type of player you generally face at a cash table? Granted, I don't have nearly as much NL experience as most of you...but nevertheless, I'd expect the "average player" to go all with way with his TPTK here, which is also why I think you can make so much money with a set against the average player.

Just my (probably flawed) thoughts,
-TW
User avatar
TightWad
<b>Forum Jackass</b>
 
Posts: 1300
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 9:41 am
Location: I rock.

Postby droqqa » Sat Apr 02, 2005 8:51 pm

Nice palman. Good illustration on an opportune time to bluff (unlike my 67s ;) )

I hate the way the AJ theoretically played the hand - very weak. The reason I dont like the it is this - poker is a game of language. By playing AJ (or AA) like that, you are not effectively communicating to your opponent your hand - which you want to do in this case b/c you have a vunlnerable hand that is unlikely to improve. The SB's raise could mean anything - but you dont know what that is because you slowplayed AJ or AA. The SB could put you on rags and is just trying to move you off your hand. But with a big flop or preflop raise, the SB knows not to try anything. I dont slowplay in these situations unless I know I have a lock hand. Otherwise, you have to commit a ton of chips to figure out if your hand is good. Not fun.

D
User avatar
droqqa
 
Posts: 1022
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 8:41 pm

Postby palman » Sat Apr 02, 2005 9:24 pm

The point of it being TPTK was to show just how strong of a hand a decent player will fold to this action.

This situation happens in tournaments much more... where the SB is more likely to be bluffing, and the BB is more likely to be calling one off with an average hand to see where he stands.

I have not tried this much at NL ring, but I am fairly confident it would be rather successful. Judging by most responses, I think that would be accurate.
User avatar
palman
 
Posts: 206
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 12:27 pm

Postby iceman5 » Sat Apr 02, 2005 10:22 pm

The problem I see is that most people on this fourm at least have a clue. Most normal online players dont.

Also, if I knew it was you making that play ,I might move in on you like I mentioned in my response. I see your point though.
iceman5 [As]
User avatar
iceman5
Semi Pro (Online)
 
Posts: 13875
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 6:49 pm
Location: Texas

Postby Mad Genius » Sat Apr 02, 2005 10:29 pm

I agree 100% with iceman. You have to remember how many idiots there are at the beginning of tournaments. A lot of people just cannot fold TPTK under any circumstance. Hell, many can't fold TPNK. I love the idea of making plays on people, it just has to be on the typical weak-tight or straightforward TAG player as opposed to a calling station.
User avatar
Mad Genius
Semi Pro (B&M & Online)
 
Posts: 1105
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 12:38 pm

Next

Return to No Limit Hold'em Cash Games

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

cron