by MecosKing » Sat Apr 09, 2005 9:17 pm
I completely understand what TW is trying to say. There is a somewhat abstract yet very discernable distinction between my winning and someone else losing. Perhaps not so much in practice, poker being a fixed sum game and all, but somewhere up there in metaphysical space, my winning and my opponent losing are two different things- rooting for one is not the same as rooting for the other. I can say 'i hope i keep on winning' and not have it mean the same thing as saying 'i hope my opponents keep on losing.'
T-dub may be a degenerate and a souse and all around arsehole, but he is obviously a philosopher and a gentleman, and for this, he gets props. When i play with the regulars at the B&M room I play in, especially the ones that give action, were always throwing each other lucky chips when we suck out, and turning over our hands on the river when the opponent weve beaten in the hand has been getting beaten up all night. And these small gestures dont really decrease the profitability of the game, because they go both ways- even if I am on the winning side more often than the losing side, it doesnt significantly affect my profits.
HOWEVER: This utopic example really only applies when your playing with friends and regulars, because it increases the camraderie of the table, makes for better action, and generally a better time and a better game, and because everyone feels the same way about it.
But, When you are at a random table with a bunch of random chode-wackers, i have no moral misgivings about taking my opponents money. And why is this? Because every person that sits at a poker table, has DONE SO VOLUNTARILY and has assumed the risk that goes along with it, the risk being the loss of every red cent in from of you. you and your opponents both recognize this, and your opponents do NOT feel sympathy for you when they give you bad beats. This might be because they are losing players, and everytime they win one against someone they think might be a winning player, they revel in it, and think you deserved to get a bad beat for playing like such a tight ass. It might be because they just view poker as many do, which is just as a game and as recreation, and not have a whole lot of regard for the money, and thus not feel sorry for anyone they beat, and conversely, not sorry for themselves when they lose. Maybe theyre just arseholes, or maybe they dont even think about it at all.
Whatever the particular case might be, the fact is that the vast majority of players that dont know you, good or bad or otherwise, are NOT going to feel sorry if they beat you out of a pot, via a bad beat or otherwise. I used to give random people lucky chips- tell them to save a river bet, or givem an extra $10 or $20 when they rebought a rack off me. Ill tell you something: I dont get shit back for it. The same guy that i gave lucky chips to when I was big stack and he rebought a rack off me is VERY UNLIKELY to show me any consideration when he catches a wheel against my set of aces. Hes just gonna jamit down my throat. And whats more, he has every right to, because its in perfect accordance with the rules of the game. Thats just the way the game is played, it aint right and it aint wrong. There is no moral quality to poker - poker just IS.
Yes, your opponents are people too, and you shouldnt wish ill upon them. However, when you sit at a poker table, the implied agreeement between the players is that there is a WAIVER of the general norms of social contract and/or the goodwill of one man toward another. Everyone knows it and everyone acts in accordance with it.
My ultimate point? The vast vast majority of the poker playing world, good players, bad players, tall players, short players, ugly players, fat players, maniacs, rocks, calling stations, saints and assholes alike-- view poker the same as most people on this site do, which is they are there because they want to win money (even the losers think that, they just dont know how to), and they have no problem taking yours, and if given the opportunity, would LOVE, more than ANYTHING, to make sets on the river against your wired overpairs ALL NIGHT LONG.
And so, there is really no need to feel any sort of moral misgivings in the game of poker, because for the most part, there is no moral aspect to the game. Sitting at a table is an implied waiver of all moral laws that might be otherwise applicable.
Think about it: How many times have you talked and BSed at the table, in an attempt to confuse your opponent? Havent you ever told the truth about your hand to inspire a call, because you think your opponent would think your lying? Or vice versa? Or just talked general nonsense in an attempt to confuse or misinform> I have, why the hell not? They do it to me all the time!
I mean, in a game where the ability to deceive an opponent, by any means necessary makes you a better player than a non-deceptive player- a game where there is no duty to tell the truth at all, and which encourages players to do exactly the opposite, it is hard to find the normativity there!, Further, this is a characteristic of the game that is recognized by all the participants, and is basically implicitly agreed to by everyone playing the game. All is fair, and its everyone for themselves, and everyone knows it.. No one feels sorry for anyone else, because the general attitude is that it couldve been me, and no one would feel sorry for me. And they are right, because thats the way the game is played!!
So, i guess what i mean to say is- Playing poker is like going to war- you don't need to feel guilty for having the biggest guns. You just better usem as best you can because even though your opponents are outmatched,, theres a whole lot of em, and they're gunnin for you.
I totally understand and respect TW's opinion when it comes to players i know, and players with whom i have a mutual consideration. And, if everyone acted like a total gentleman maybe the game would be more fun, or maybe it wouldnt - its hard to tell. But the fact is nobodys doin it, so fuck it - its pistols at sunrise, mother-fucker!
NorthViewBTP: poor old ED
NorthViewBTP: from gun totin beer swiller
NorthViewBTP: to limp wristed defender of fagdom
NorthViewBTP: ALL THINGS TO ALL MEN
NorthViewBTP: IS THE SAME AS NO THINGS TO ANY MAN
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Mekos King: NV ignoring
Jimmy BTP: he's ignoring me too
Jimmy BTP: obv fell asleep in his colostomy bag
Jimmy BTP: running shite everywhere
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neelguru: I gave up politics when I was 6
neelguru: Im dedicating the rest of my life to getting unstuck