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Basic Concepts - Pot Committed

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Basic Concepts - Pot Committed

Postby Sir_Raise_Alot » Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:32 am

When are you pot committed?
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Be aggresive, play the odds and you will over come the bad beats of life (I think).
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Postby Rhound50 » Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:45 pm

I really hate the idea of pot committed, the chips you have in front of you are your money and there is never a reason to put money in a pot that you cant win just because you have a large amount of your chips in the pot, once they are in the pot they are no longer yours. I dont care what % of your stack is in the middle, putting more money in the pot you cant win is always a bad play. Instead of thinking about pot odds, think of it as pot odds, if the pot is $200 and you have only $35 left, you only have to win this pot once in 5 to make this a positive EV call. If you dont think you will win one in five, than there is no reason to put more money in the pot.
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Postby droqqa » Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:11 pm

Good topic! I believe that I am NEVER pot committed on the river. If I think I am behind - a fold is the right move, regardless of how much money is in the pot.

However, I do believe in being pot committed on the turn. For me, it most often happens when I am semi-bluffing and someone comes over the top all-in on the turn.

It happened yesterday when I raised an EP limper with the JT of spades. Flop came K89, with the 89 on spades. He checked, I fired a pot bet. He called. Turn came an Ace. He checked again, I fired the pot again. He came over the top all-in. I wasnt thrilled on calling off my stack with just a draw, but even if he had a set or AK, I still had 13 outs. Getting 3-1 on my money, I had to call, I was pot-committed.

Not a good feeling, but it doesnt happen that often.

D
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Postby k3nt » Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:22 pm

So you're "pot committed" when the size of the pot compared to what's left of your stack is guaranteed to give you odds to call any bet?

In other words, "pot committed" as a concept depends not only on your stack size and the size of the pot, but always depends as well on your estimation of your chances to win the hand? (For instance, if you're on a pure bluff with no chance to show down a better hand, you can't possibly be pot committed.)

I hope that's right. It makes sense to me.
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Postby Rhound50 » Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:26 pm

"Its a pink handbag not backpack damn it." Godlikeroy

"From playing full tilt I wanna smash every garden gnome I see. That travelocity commercial puts me on instant tilt."
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Postby Nortonesque » Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:24 pm

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Postby droqqa » Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:33 pm

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Postby palman » Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:50 pm

If I get an unsuited two gapper.... I usually find myself pot committed preflop.
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Postby Nortonesque » Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:30 pm

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Postby droqqa » Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:18 pm

Norton -

I see what you are saying. The two scenarios here are:

1) Its the turn. You are facing a bet for your stack. You know you are behind. However, you know have outs to improve. Because the pot is laying you odds to call (say 10:1) which are better than your odds to improve (say 3:1), you should call. You are pot committed.

2) Its the river. You are facing a bet for your stack. You suspect that you may be behind. However, because the odds of you being ahead (say 5:1) are less than the odds that the pot is laying you (say 8:1), you should call. You are pot committed.

More often than not, I associate the concept of pot committed with #1 rather than #2 for this reason. In example one - both of the odds are fixed. Say you have a flush draw, and your opponent has a straight - you have 9 outs. Your odds are always going to be 4:1 (roughly). The pot is laying you some amount which will not change.

In example two - the pot odds are fixed again. However, the odds of you being ahead are not! They are dependent on your ability to narrow down you opponent's hand! The better player you are, the more likely you will be able to put your opponent on a specific hand, rather than a range of hands. If you can do this - you will never be pot committed - you will only be making calls in which you are ahead!

I guess this is why I only think of pot committed as example one, and not two. In two, I think that I should be able to narrow down my opponents holding enough so that I can make a yes or no decision as to whether or not I am ahead. This is probably impossible to do - but I know that every time I make an incorrect call on the river I think - "I should have known better!" Not, "I was pot committed"

D
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Postby Gregor » Wed Apr 13, 2005 8:48 am

Think the question is, how do you get a feel for whether you will win 1 of 5? 1 of 6? 1 of 10? Its a very qualitative, subjective analysis... Im talking about a river call, with no opportunity to improve....
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Postby k3nt » Wed Apr 13, 2005 9:41 am

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Postby Gregor » Wed Apr 13, 2005 2:35 pm

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Postby devilmollusk » Wed Apr 13, 2005 5:09 pm

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Postby rdale » Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:03 pm

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