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Like This Turn Check-Raise Better?

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Like This Turn Check-Raise Better?

Postby Mad Genius » Sat May 07, 2005 8:31 pm

Well, I don't know what it is about betting the flop and checkraising the turn, but lately I find myself taking this line quite often. Would you prefer leading out the turn again? I hate check-folding because I am pretty much guaranteed to have at least 15 outs here, but at the same time I hate check-calling because even if my draw hits the river will be tough to play.

So let's vote: Who likes..

a) leading for 2/3 pot
b) check-calling
c) check-raising
d) check-folding

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $10 BB (9 handed)

CO ($1225.50)
Button ($985)
SB ($1143)
BB ($1062.50)
UTG ($375)
Hero ($2851.75)
MP1 ($996.95)
MP2 ($227.25)
MP3 ($1027)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with [Tc], [Qc].
1 fold, Hero raises to $40, 3 folds, CO calls $40, 3 folds.

Flop: ($95) [9s], [8h], [7c] (2 players)
Hero bets $70, CO calls $70.

Turn: ($235) [3c] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $200, Hero raises to $600
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Re: Like This Turn Check-Raise Better?

Postby rdale » Sat May 07, 2005 8:45 pm

The reason I like this line here... you have a bunch of outs, he is going to wind up putting in the rest of his stack if he calls, you are well ahead of the game and gambling it up isn't so bad. The board isn't paired, and you will fold pretty much everything except JT AA KK or a set/two pair, QQ/AJ has a tough time calling unless the person can't fold an overpair/TPTK. I like it even more if this player is very aggressive and semi-loose. I like it a lot less if the opponent thinks you are a monkey or is a calling station :) I find this kind of play works out best for me when they think I'm really tight and aggressive and less when Ive consistently been making "creative" plays. If you make the flush you are still likely to get paid, if you make the straight you are definetly getting paid. My questions when making a strong play like this are:

What do I think they have?
What do they think I have?
Am I willing to play for stacks/go broke here?
If they just smooth call am I willing to play with essentially nothing on the river?
What is the river bet they fold too?
What smartass thing will I say when I suck out on top set that I misread?

If i can come up with logical answers to these questions, making a strong play is the correct choice win or lose when I am bluffing/semi-bluffing.
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Postby droqqa » Sat May 07, 2005 9:29 pm

Before I get to the turn raise, I am all for raising in EP with suited connectors, but QT does not fall into this category. QT has to be one of the top 5 trap hands. The biggest benefit to raising with suited connectors is when you hit a flop hard and your opponent has absolutely no idea that he is beat with his 2 pair type hand. That is near impossible with QT.

Say you flop a straight, and your opponent flops 2 pair holding 89 on a J98 board. Do you think he is going to put his stack in here? Isnt JJ a distinct possibility for you? He has to be a bit nervous that he is beat, and thus may slow down or fold to an all-in bet. He has to know that is a scary flop for AA, and a player that raises preflop and keeps coming on the turn probably holds more than an overpair. Further, you dont have a lot of cards that can come on the turn that are good for you. An A, K, or Q on the turn and now 2/4 big pairs have a set. A Jack, and your opponent wont like it at all - that kills his hand. A ten is horrible. 8 or 9 and you're toast. 7? Forget it. You're left to a 6 or below. I dont like that one bit.

But say you hold 57, flop 468. Your opponent holds top two. You are betting strong. He is much more likely to put you on just an overpair here. Plus, there are a bevy of cards that can come off that you can still get his stack. Pretty much any card except a 4, 6 or 8. I just dont make a habit of playing QT at all, let alone raising with it. There isnt enough deceptive value in those cards - when you hit, those are the very cards that you opponent fears anyway.

Anyway, on to the turn. I dont like it for similar reasons. Board is 7893. You want to be able to fold off a better hand than yours, but the only ones that will fold here are one-pair+straight draw type hands. 8T or 9T. Your opponent is going to put you on an overpair here. I wouldnt put you on a set - most players like to limp with 77, 88, or 99 in EP, not raise. There is a chance you have JT, but most players would be willing to go to the river with their 2 pair, even if it was 78. No chance they are folding a set.

So you are making a play that is going to take advantage of 8T and 9T. Aren't you better off trying to get to the river for cheap, hoping a Jack or the [6c] comes off and you can take their stack? Or if you dont hit (and neither does your opponent) and you put your opponent on 8T or 9T - check-call the turn and lead the river! He will be hard pressed to call with just one pair, especially if a paint card or A hits.

Quick addition: Your opponent could hold TT, JJ, or QQ here, in fact those are quite likely. I've found that the opponents who are unwilling to re-raise preflop with QQ are the same ones that wont let go post flop. As for TT and JJ, I think that a similar line I suggested for playing the 8T or 9T will work.

D
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Postby kennyg » Sat May 07, 2005 11:40 pm

A)check-calling would be criminal.

B)check-folding would be correct if he overbet and commited himself on the turn. If he completely distorted the pot like this, check raising would have no folding equity and you wouldn't have odds to call either.

C)2/3 pot bet is great because you give him the oppertunity to laydown...and he has no clue what you have.

D)check-raising is also great because you're getting your stack in with a great draw and your folding equity has to be pretty decent. A profitable move in the long run I think.

I vote for 2/3 and check-raising. both plays work well for me here.
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genius

Postby geewhiz » Sun May 08, 2005 2:32 am

i love the check raise here.

And btw - congrats Genius on your recent $100 rebuy MTT win.
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genius

Postby geewhiz » Sun May 08, 2005 2:35 am

aaaaa
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