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QQ 5/10NL

Postby Mad Genius » Fri May 06, 2005 4:52 am

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Re: QQ 5/10NL

Postby rdale » Fri May 06, 2005 6:28 am

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Postby Stelvask » Fri May 06, 2005 10:22 am

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Postby Stelvask » Fri May 06, 2005 10:23 am

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Postby Kalle » Fri May 06, 2005 11:30 am

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Postby Mad Genius » Fri May 06, 2005 5:38 pm

Question:

If you are villian what would you most likely put me on after the flop?

If you are villian what would you most likely put me on after i checkraise you on the turn?

In other words, when I bet the flop and then check the turn, villian might be inclined to think that I don't have the ace. Meaning that I have QQ-KK. He would expect me to check-fold those, right? If everytime I check-folded with QQ-KK in a situation like this it would be way too easy to bluff me and way too easy to take away pots from me. A way to counter this is effectively is by checkraising the turn. If I only did this with AA then I would never get action on my big hands. Even if he has AK, he can't feel good about his hand, knowing that he isn't really calling $250, he's really calling $800 (knowing the rest of my stack is probably going in on the river). If I'm not bluffing here, I have AA, JJ, or AK here in all likelihood. His flop and turn play lead me to believe he had AK, AQ, or maybe ATs and knowing that this player was, in all likelihood, a solid player capable of making big laydowns, I thought this was the best way to approach the turn.

Also, I'm not sure if I understand your comment about my raise being too big. Consider that the pot is 550 after I see his $100 bet, and I'm only raising $250 more. It's less than 1/2 pot, if I was on the other side of things it would look VERY much like a value raise to me, no?
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Postby droqqa » Fri May 06, 2005 9:03 pm

While I do like the play, you're going to need a very good read on your opponent to pull this one off. Here's the thing -

What hands are MP going to call a raise with, and then call a flop bet with on a A-high rainbow board, but then bet the turn when you check to him and be willing to give it up to your check-raise?

If you say AK or AQ, then in my opinion, MP is not a good player. With AK, he should have raised you by now, either preflop or on the flop. WIth AQ, he should have folded preflop. Thus, for your opponent to hold AK or AQ here - you are against a mediocre player at best - one who is likely to go all the way with his 2 pair-good kicker here.

If your opponent has a jack here - he's likely not folding.

If he has 33 - he's definitely not folding.

The only way that this play works is if you are against a LAG here. He calls your flop bet knowing that: 1) You are much more likely to be pushing a pair or a bluff here than AK and 2) You will check the turn and he can push you out. The check-raise will work here because he is likely to have nothing!

Other than that scenario, I dont see this play working. In fact, I have tried it a couple times, with little-to-no success.

D
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Postby Stelvask » Sat May 07, 2005 12:01 am

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Postby Mad Genius » Sat May 07, 2005 2:43 am

I didn't put him on a jack, and 33 completely slipped my mind for some reason, thus leading me to believe that he must have AK-AT and would lay those down. I was wrong and hit a beautiful river J. :oops:
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Postby kennyg » Sat May 07, 2005 9:51 am

"I'll take KennyGs advice before Sklanskys every time. "
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Postby Mad Genius » Sat May 07, 2005 7:11 pm

Yes I do have FPS. I'll be the first to admit that. I think the reason why I thought I could get my opponent to lay an ace down here is because he really isn't beating anything but a bluff with it, and even if I am bluffing it's gonna cost his entire stack to find out whether I have the goods or not. While I agree with you that a lot of calling stations exist at every level, I find there to be more and more weak-tight players as you move up in levels, and thus I try to take advantage of those weak-tights as much as I can. Obviously this hand isn't the optimal hand to show that since I happened to run into a monster, but the last few days playing 5/10 I have been able to pick up a lot of small-med pots with moderate success when I haven't had much.

I agree with you 100% though. I'm gonna try to cut down on my bluffs. I know in my mind these plays should work because if my opponents really think the way they should, but clearly a lot of them don't think at all which is the reason why these plays can easily backfire.
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Postby kennyg » Sat May 07, 2005 11:26 pm

Theres nothing wrong with making a play occasionley. i think like doyle about it though.... when i make a play...i want to have something to fall back..some kind of draw or something. even if it's only a gutshot draw..at least you have some outs to help or nut your hand.

Agreed that the 5/10 tables are a bit weak-tight. My limited time at the 5/10 tables..I thought they were easier to play then the 1/2 tables. But that may have been an especially good table to play on as well.

I just can't wait till my bankroll is big enough. :)

good luck to you man! don't take all their money before i get there.
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Postby Bob314 » Mon May 09, 2005 1:01 am

After you try to follow through your preflop raise by showing strength and someone plays back at you (or sticks with you) you are sometimes no longer playing a small-medium pot where it may or may not matter what cards you hold, you are now playing a fairly large pot. Like Kenny suggests if you are going to keep pushing you will have significantly greater value in your plays if you have outs to fall back on.
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Postby Mad Genius » Mon May 09, 2005 1:42 am

I did have outs to fall back on (and as a matter of fact hit one of them on the river).

I do see what you are saying, though, and it's very valid point.
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