Just thought I would start another KK thread. Unlike the low limit tables, where you should never lay down KK preflop, at the higher limits (i.e. 5/10NL), I think you have to be willing to lay down KK preflop. But when? Consider the following scenarios in which you and your opponent both have full 100xBB stacks -

1) You raise in EP 4xBB, MP re-raises to 12xBB. You re-raise to 35xBB. He goes all-in. Do you call?

2) You raise in EP 4xBB. MP goes all-in. Do you call?

3) EP raises to 4xBB. You re-raise to 12xBB. EP re-raises to 35xBB. What do you do?

4) EP raises to 4xBB. You re-raise to 12xBB. EP goes all-in. Do you call?

5) You limp in EP with KK. MP raises 4xBB. You limp-raise to 12xBB. He re-raises to 35xBB. Do you call?

6) You limp in EP with KK. MP raises 4xBB. You limp-raise to 12xBB. He moves in. Do you call?

Which of these 6 scenarios do you think a call is most warranted, if any?

My general rule of thumb is that when you hold KK, against a reasonable opponent, the 3rd raise preflop is AA. Thus, I think scenarios 1, and 3-6 all warrant a fold, sadly. Scenario 1 is the easiest fold for me, but it is also the hand that you put 35% of your stack in. Ugh.

Curious to hear the forum responses.

Thanks

D

Helps to know the opponent of course...

2 definately

4,5,6 perhaps...would like to know the opponent

Completely opponnent dependent but with no reads in any of these cases, fold them all probably

The problem is that the higher you get the better the players you get as well. A regular at a home game that I attend ($100 max with $1/$2 blinds) knows me pretty well as being a very tight player and I know him pretty well as being relatively tight, but sometimes loose/aggressive as well. One night I limped UTG with K-K and when it got to him he raised. Action comes back around to me and I made a big re-raise. He thinks, calls and we take a flop heads up. The flop comes 10 high, I bet and he moves all in. Now I thought for a very VERY long time. I know he wouldn't see a flop with 10-10 against my big backraise but at the same time he is telling me he has A-A. What other hand can come over the top of a backraise on that flop? In the end I made the call because he is an aggressive player and I don't think he'd trap with A-A when I'd shown I'd liked my hand that much. I didn't think it was worth folding. He showed Q-Q and said he thought I'd fold any hand there but A-A.

I think that the less raises made the less information you have about your opponents hand and the more likely I'd be to call--in general. Laying down kings should also be a very player-specific option. The tighter the player appears on your notes the more information you will have.

Regadless of the times that it is arguable correct to lay kings down preflop I think that doggra's statement, "...at the higher limits (i.e. 5/10NL), I think you have to be willing to lay down KK preflop." is misleading. The way I read this line I feel like you are telling me that if I can't fold K-K preflop then I am not cut out for higher limit play and that I'm going to be a losing player at those limits. Folding K-K preflop, in my opinion, should be so rare that you almost never have to do it. And the times that you do run into A-A? As Kennyg would say, that's why you have a bankroll. Folding K-K should be like being put on trial. If you have ANY reasonable doubt that your opponent has A-A get your money in the middle and let your bankroll take care of that rare 44-1 (I read those were the odds of this happening in another thread I believe) situation.

More like 24:1 i believe

I fold 5-6. I would like to say that I fold 1-4 but I dont think I'm there yet.

I have two other scenarios (both hands I played recently)

7) EP limps. You raise to 4xBB in MP. EP limp-reraises to 12xBB.

8) EP limps. MP raises 4xBB. You reraise to 12xBB in LP. EP limp-reraises to 30xBB. MP folds.

It is posts like these that make me wish Mark Gregorich were here... He seems to always know the best line, with very sound reasoning.

That said, I only ever really fold kings to the three raise rule, some times not then, and super rocks in an online game. The money in an online game isn't deep enough usually to warrant folding KK preflop, and many players are willing to gamble it up with AQ, QQ-22, we just recently had a low content post with QQ vs. J6o all in preflop. Just because it is $1k instead of $200 doesn't mean it is any deeper just larger stacks to the blinds, I might consider folding more strongly if I was taking a shot at larger game than my bankroll can afford, but even then I would have to have very good reason. You don't have to go broke with KK, but you should seriously consider the source of the all in, and make a choice based on your reaction to their previous play more so than just current action described above. You should consider it even more if you are known to open raise any pair, suited connectors, suited paint, as the more likely you are to raise with less than KK the more likely someone will play TT and JJ fast against you.