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KK against flop min raise, 200NL

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KK against flop min raise, 200NL

Postby Smokin'Al » Sun May 08, 2005 6:19 am

Villain in this hand is categorized by PT as a fish (LP-P), but he's only appeared on my radar in one hand, when he rereraised all-in (50BB stack) after a bet from EP and a pot-raise from MP - villain had with a K-high flush draw on an A-high flop. He's had some nice hands since, and has my $301 covered.

Villain open limps into my SB from the button, I raise to $9 with [Ks][Kd], BB folds, and villain calls.

There's $20 in the pot, heads-up, and the flop is [2h][Jc][Qc]. I lead for $16 and villain min-raises to $32.

What's your line for the rest of the hand? I can see arguments for all of (i) fold, (ii) call-check-fold, (iii) stop and go, (iv) call-lead, (v) call-check-raise, (vi) reraise...
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Postby Mad Genius » Sun May 08, 2005 6:25 am

I really hate situations like these because you are pretty much being forced into playing a big pot with one pair (not to mention out of position). That said, I would rule out a set here - I rarely ever see sets being played this way. I would be inclined to put him on a Queen, KQ down to Q9. You beat QJ but you beat everything else. There is also a chance he is using the minraise here to buy a free card on the turn with his draw. However, you don't have enough information here to know, and if you reraise he may push back with a draw or a pair of Queens and you'd be forced to fold.

The best line I can think of here is smooth-call and make a solid-sized bet on any non club turn.
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Postby iceman5 » Sun May 08, 2005 7:49 am

Ive said it before and I'll say it again.

If you folded EVERY time you got minimum raised, you would be happy in the long run. I really believe its +EV to fold every time you get min raised. (not including when you have a disguised hand like a set or when you have odds to draw).

Now, do I fold every time? No. Its unrealistic, but if you keep track of the results from all hands that you got min raised.. (when you werent sure you were ahead or had odds to draw), you would see you are losing money in these hands.

It happened last night. I raise AA. Flop KJ7. I bet poit and got min raised. I pushed in and he had KJ. I hit a 7 and busted him , but thats not the point.

If you fold right now you wont be happy, but if you dont...you'll wish you did in most cases.
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Postby excession » Sun May 08, 2005 1:51 pm

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Postby DaHitDogg » Sun May 08, 2005 3:30 pm

I would guess that I lose more money in hands where I get min-raised than any other situation. Unless I've seen my opponent make a similar play w/ something I can beat then I know I should muck my overs. (of course I rarely follow through :cry: It sux and may be the toughest thing to do in poker, but you should probably fold.
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Postby Eaglesfan » Sun May 08, 2005 3:38 pm

I agree with Iceman, most of the time when you get min. raised your being trapped and should probably drop your hand. As for this hand its pretty tough. Would he really limp with QQ or JJ from the button? QJ or 22 are definite possibilities but there's also strait flush draws galore out there which are also possiblities. Tough hand to play but I think I call the flop and go for a check-raise on the turn if a safe card hits and you put him on a draw, or fold the turn if a scary card hits. Interesting hand though you could play it numerous ways.
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Have to agree with Iceman

Postby AlexMR » Mon May 09, 2005 1:07 am

Well,

I have to agree with Iceman here. I have lost too much money with overpairs getting reraised!!!! FOLD!

I can remember many hands like that, and in my case you are beat almost for sure. I used to call even all ins with overpairs!! You will lose most of the time. If u have reads about villain and he is a maniac, well , I might even push, if you dont know who he is, the hand should be over, IMHO.


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Postby Smokin'Al » Mon May 09, 2005 12:16 pm

I'm interested to see everyone felt as weak tight as me :)

Brief results:

I called the min raise and checked the turn, as I felt villain was passive enough to check behind if he was drawing, so the (flop) pot odds he was offering weren't bad.

The turn was a blank, and I check folded to his $50 bet.

I definitely felt immediately afterwards that I should have bet the (blank) turn as MG suggested, as there were so many draws vs so few made hands he could have.
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Postby iceman5 » Tue May 10, 2005 4:46 pm

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Postby CocaCola » Tue May 10, 2005 5:56 pm

I never knew minimum raises were so dangerous... i dont know if i could fold here though. I just moved to 1/2 from .5/1, and its totally different. A lot of people dont give you credit for a hand when you raise pf and bet on the flop, they will often raise with anything, a small pair, draw, AQ etc. I think a reraise woulda been a good move so he knows you didn't miss with KA or what not. I mean with JJ or QQ most people atleast put in a small raise cause overcards flop so readily, and if he's limping with JJ or QQ, aka slow playing, hes prolly going to slow play his set too.
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