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Losing Money on AK and Other Thoughts

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Losing Money on AK and Other Thoughts

Postby JJSCOTT2 » Wed May 11, 2005 3:07 am

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Postby Aisthesis » Wed May 11, 2005 3:25 am

My only question would be whether your raise is sufficient to limit the field. If you have more than 2 callers to the raise, there are some dangers involved. Otherwise, unless the board is otherwise scary, I tend to think you have to lose your stack on improved AK, which has on the flop really become AA or KK.

So, if this isn't just extraordinarily bad luck, I'd look at the quantity of the initial raise. You don't want 5 or 6 people in the hand hitting the flop in unpredictable ways.
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Postby excession » Wed May 11, 2005 6:27 am

I wouln't worry too much whether you are UA or TA. Both are long term winners with simial styles. UA is just slightly more likely to fire more bullets.

UA is checked for first and requires flop AF of 2.75+, turn 1.7+, river 1.7+
TA is tight (<22 Vp$iP),with flop aggression of 1.8+.

What i would worry about is a VpiP as low as 11%. That will be the restricting factor for your PTBB/100 (unless you don't care because your low Vp$iP allows you to 8-table or sthg).


As for AK it was a losing had for me until I adopted the following simple strategy. Always raise with it from any position in unraised pot. Flat call any raised pot (unless 3% or less PFR for raiser). Fold in any re-rasied pot (unless maniacs).
If you miss, always bet out with it (75%+ pot) if first to act/checked to on flop.
If you hit do the same unless you are checking to a maniac or you called a pre-flop raise from blinds (in which case you can probably check and exepct to get bet back at)
Don't push it any further unless you have hit.

It might not be the deepest or most subtle strategy but it does make my play of a tricky hand easy and profitable..
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Postby Soul » Wed May 11, 2005 7:00 am

I checked all my DB's and I play AK both suited and unsuited quite profitable. I play it exactly like Excession. And I agree that 11% is too low playing 10 handed.

In my opinion you also play the big hands better when you play a bit looser, as your not forced to make a killing everytime you get AA-JJ. If you sit folding for an hour get KK and get the A on the flop you must be able to lay it down if anyone puts any pressure on you, this is easier to do if you had played a couple of more hands previously in that hour.
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Postby Yogadude » Wed May 11, 2005 11:47 am

I either win a small pot relatively uncontested or I lose a huge one when someone hits 2 pair on an A high board and I don't give it up. Is this common for AK?<<<

I would say that this is somewhat common with AK. One way to avoid this situation is this: Bet the size of the pot on the flop if an A or K hits. If you opponent calls and there are no draws on the board, check the turn, in first or last position. If you are ahead in the hand you are probably only giving your opponent a chance to hit a 2-5 outer (pocket pair or making some weird 2 pair) but if you are behind you get to save the turn bet and then play the river. This may also induce a river bet from a weaker ace or a total bluff, earning you money.

If the board shows and obvious draw then the play becomes more difficult because checking the turn gives up too many free outs so you usually have to bet and just hope you are not up against a made hand.

Unfortunately, how to play this hand (any hand really) will come from experience and intuition. If you keep making the same mistakes over and over again that just might be where your skill level is stuck...but if you can start to duck those times when you are way behind..now you're playing poker!

gl

YD


Should I be tending towards avoiding big losses when I get raised on an A or K high flop that is otherwise un-coordinated.

Also, today my rating switched from "Eagle" to "Ultra-Agressor", what aspect of my play decides this barrier? Overall, my PTBB/100 is at 5.92 which is somewhat dissapointing since I expected it to be higher but obviously I don't have enough hands logged yet to really know how I'm playing. My VP$IP is sitting at 11.30 overall, which is interesting, I know I'm tight, but that seems insanely ultra tight, even for 10 handed games and I don't think I'm getting playable hands any less than normal, what range of VP$IP do most succesful players fall into?
If everybody was able to make a living off of their hobbies the world would be a much better place.
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Re: Losing Money on AK and Other Thoughts

Postby rdale » Wed May 11, 2005 12:14 pm

I play it differently against different opponents...

Basically I think as long as I am in the drivers seat against a moderate opponent I'm fine, if a nut case tries to take the pot way from me he is going to have to show me two pair or set, if an otherwise passive player or a squeezer raises, I try my best to get to a cheap show down and if I can't fold.

I raise it about 95% of the time, only know a couple of people that I will play it all in preflop against in a cash game, unless they are shortstacked with about a 25% buy in or I am more than ahead of the buy in by a lot. I lead when raised and I miss or hit, if I miss and the flop was taken by four or five opponents I check fold most of the time and tighten up what I raise or my raise amount goes up. The presence of a calling station makes me slow down when I miss, I will bet if in position and take a free look at the river. I might well have the best hand against this guy but I'm not putting in any more money to find out, unless I know for a fact he calls on the flop and folds the turn habitually. There are a few people I will call down unimproved and win the pot 90% of the time that it misses, I don't make a habit of calling with A high. If the game is overly aggressive especially preflop I limp it more and hope to trap AQ AJ KQ being raised. If a loose passive player or tight passive player raises me I'm done with a one pair hand the majority of the time, if a loose aggressive player makes the same raise, I pray I have the best of it and start looking for what he might be betting.

AK is so much easier to play when you get a good flop, or against tight predictable opponents that are easy to read, and can lay down medium pairs to a bet on the flop if they don't hit a set. It bites playing it against a bunch of loose cannons, although they will tend to pay you off when you both hit the A and they don't make two pair.
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Postby AlexMR » Wed May 11, 2005 5:37 pm

wow,

I am doing exactly what excession said with AK. That hand used to be a disaster for me. I was losing a fortune, but now it is at 1.35PTBB/100 overall (including 7.5K+ hands that were losing with them.

In fact, I am doing exactly that with al my raising hands. ALL OF THEM. And I am getting paid or if I dont hit, many times steal the pot with the bet (which is a bluff). I guess you have to learn when it is over for those hands. and the truth is that the higher the hand, the hardest it is to let go. As Rdale said, if the table is full of CS and you dont hit, stop the aggression after the flop. DONT BET THE TURN. If you check your losing AK hands (you can replay them in PT) it is very probable that you keep betting them until the showdown hoping for a high card ace to win, and that doenst happen often.

I think that little strategy is the first responsible (along with folding like 3000% more) for my numbers to go from -1.8BB/100 to 7.9BB/100 and winning 14% of total hands against 8.5% that i used to be winning.. You will steal so many pots that way and you will get paid many other times when u hit. I think for you would be great (for stealing pots) because you play an extremely tight game. About that, I think this startegy should be along with loosening up a little. If you are such a rock, when u raise u wont find many callers and you do need some to make money. I have tried basically three styles:
TAA-sLAA-ABC. You get a different response for each "personality" you assume. I am more comfortable with TAA, but you have to raise preflop about 1/2 of the time to get called. The regular 7% that will get you rated as TAA is too low. And you would need a moron-filled table to be called. sLAA is far away from your play, could make you a bunch of money but could make you lose a lot too (if you are ok with variation, try it, even thou I doubt you do). Vanilla...uhmm... dont try it. You are so predictable being vanilla that you dont make much money, but you can certainly be a winner.

All this is my very short experience in NL $25 and $20. At party, Prima, Absolute.

Try to combined the startegy with being a little more loose and reraising preflop more hands (about the half of the hands you play). Also, have in mind Aisthesis´ contribution: How much do u usually raise preflop? Dont know in NL50 but down here in NL 5xBB will clear the field good enough. Thats my preflop raise and i am getting the results with it.

Play 2K hands and post the results for that little sample. I am almost sure that you will have a posive BB/100

GL.
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Postby JJSCOTT2 » Wed May 11, 2005 6:33 pm

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Postby AlexMR » Wed May 11, 2005 8:10 pm

Well, That could explain why you are losing on it. If you just check/fold if missed on the flop, that might be the cause. But I am not so sure, because if you raise and fold/check if you dont hit, the times you hit and win should make up for the times you dont and lose the amount reraised. You also have to consider the times you hit and lose anyway. In that situation, you lose big, but when you hit, many times you wont have a big pot, because, given that you are an eagle who only plays 11% of the hands, a raise or reraise from you and then an A or K on the board, not many people will call you.

On the other hand I think your check/fold if not hitting might be considered as a very weak move and makes you extremely predictable. Who is going to call you if you only bet when you hit and fold on the flop if you dont get your pair? I know I used to do that. i read an article or thread stareted by Iceman, and he was explaining why you have to bet the flop when you raise preflop, regardless of your hand improving or not. this has to be done almost always. Let say about 95% of times (I think that was his number, you get the idea). That way you´ll have them guessing and they will pay sometimes, hopefully when u hit, and most of the time you will take the pot right there. It is amazing how well this work!!

Start trying it!!!



What are the odds of hitting in the flop? :wink:
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Postby JJSCOTT2 » Thu May 12, 2005 12:15 am

I think you mis-understood my last post. What I meant was, in the rare instances in which I limp AK, then I check/fold a missed flop. If I've raised with it, i nearly always bet close to the size of the pot if the board isn't ridiculously threatening.
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Postby AlexMR » Thu May 12, 2005 12:23 am

Yep. My mistake. You are totally right.

Remember to post the results after playing with excession strategy for a while. ... Maybe 2 or 2.5K hands.


CU....
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