by Aisthesis » Tue May 17, 2005 1:36 am
Hey, OK, which Cherokee Casino are you playing at? Catoosa by any chance? I played that one last night, and it was pretty sweet, I thought. These moves are looking very familiar, by the way. Oh, also, how long have you been playing it? I just started up last week.
Anyhow, as to the hand, I think you and button both played quite well, although I'm still somewhat uncertain as to raising quantities.
At the one I've been playing at, I found that $15 didn't sufficiently limit the field, $30 sometimes yes, sometimes no, and was kind of intending to test the waters with a fairly standard raise to $25 (although in Catoosa last night, that simply wasn't enough after the guys from the 5/10 NL table came and sat down, so you definitely have to be a little flexible here).
I do think you have to lose your stack on that flop, just no way around it. But it's in part due to the larger raise. You simply can't fold KK as overpair to the first reasonable raise, although you can imo go on the defensive in the hand at that point. Button's play also strikes me as atypical. As you observed, most people play a game that for my taste is much too passive, and I really like his raise there. If he fails to do so, he also lets you draw to your K, by the way.
Anyhow, if I'm adding this up right, button has a stack of something like $220. That's actually big enough to just a call for $35. Take a look at my AA vs. 22 hand, too, played also in a similar game, as well as my proposed solution. Anyhow, these guys really like playing big pair vs. set, so, mastering the nuances of that setup is going to be crucial.
Just as an experiment, let's assume the same callers with a raise of $15 (limp-re-raise is also an option, by the way, although UTG+1, I already like it less). You now have a pot of $45 out of position. Ok, so you bet out $40. AJ player, who's imo the idiot at the table, flat calls, and set raises to $120 maybe? I think you still have to call at that point, but I'd assume I was behind and be drawing to the K. I think you can now reasonably get away from your KK here unless you hit the turn.
Main question is whether the $15 raise sufficiently limits the field... It does have the advantage on the big pair end of it that you can get away from your hand--although it's rough when you have no read on your opponent. Also, if someone tries a little re-raise to the $15, you can move in for a healthy pot.
Anyhow, these are all just brainstorming ideas at this point. These sets vs. overpair are very tricky to play. I don't think you can second-guess yourself on the flop here (although I personally would have bet it out bigger, probably more like $100-$120 or so), but there's actually a LOT going on PF in terms of setting up the subsequent action with the raising quantity.
I also don't know what you buy-in for, and I think that's important. I started the game buying in for $500. Now, after my big AA hit, I'm buying in for $400, which I still think is deep enough. In any case, I do want to have the leverage of a stack with sufficient depth to be able to play all the way through a contested hand. And I think $400 is enough, although I'll go back to $500 if I can get a bit more bankroll built up.
Anyhow, at $15, 77 is wise to call that raise. And you're devaluing your big pairs if you try to raise so much that you cut him off from that (winning just the blinds with KK isn't enough imo). What's good here is your AJ guy. Just so happens that unfortunately 77 ended up with the better hand this time.
I don't think anyone who'll call a raise with AJ has the skill to raise your flop bet. These guys really will just play about anything passively.