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Flopped a straight

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Flopped a straight

Postby iceman5 » Fri May 20, 2005 12:44 pm

$2/$4 NL. Villian has $325 and I have him covered.

Villian limps UTG, 2 more limpers, I limp on the button with 87 of clubs. BB checks

5 to the flop. Pot is $20. The flop comes 965 with 2 spades. UTG bets $8. Its folded to me and I raise to $35. Only UTG calls.

Pot is $90. The turn is another 5 and UTG leads out again, this time for $16. I raise to $70 and he calls.

Pot is $230. The river is an offsuit Q. He checks. Do you check behind? Something smells fishy here with the board paired and him pulling the stop and go on the turn.
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Postby MVPSPORTS » Fri May 20, 2005 12:54 pm

I'd check... he called 2 raises from you, and the only way he calls is he's got a monster hand (ie... boat...) Most people don't check the river w/ a monster, but I'd still be wary... I'd check and take my $230 pot on a SB special, and would still be happy, even if he was playing A5, or something you could've taken more money from...

A real question is what would you have done if he led out the river instead of checking...?
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Postby poker2006 » Fri May 20, 2005 1:33 pm

I think you have the best hand, but I think I would check. I see this kind of play with an overpair, where someone is afraid of the flop but doesn't want to give it up, bets small amounts as stopping bets and calls raises. You probably have the best hand but you can't be sure with the paired board, and you don't want to be faced with a tough decision if he check raises you all in.
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Postby AlexMR » Fri May 20, 2005 2:09 pm

Something smells fishy, something smells MONSTERy. What if you bet and he raises all in?

I would check and take what it´s there. Do you have any read of our vilain? If not, the guy limp from UTG, I think you should put him on pockets, perhaps 5s. His turn bet seemed weak, but he could also be milking you.

Definetely check.

Results....
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Postby Mad Genius » Fri May 20, 2005 2:25 pm

I would be and fold to a raise.
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Postby Aisthesis » Fri May 20, 2005 2:32 pm

I'm happy to check the river here and am not terribly convinced that you're much better off than a split pot.

I don't want to make a value bet and face some kind of huge raise with the board paired. If the player's at all reasonable, I don't even see what he's supposed to have that you beat--possibly AA/KK with limp-re-raise intention (although that doesn't seem very fashionable at the moment), 96 UTG (???), then there's 65s or the flopped set, both of which are not very nice for your hand.

I think you've shown plenty of strength, and if he called those bets with a slowplayish-looking turn bet, you may be in serious trouble. I really think he flopped a set or possibly has 65s.
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Postby iceman5 » Fri May 20, 2005 2:39 pm

I dont understand the "bet and fold to a raise" mentality.

He has like $210 left and the pot is $230. if I bet $125 and he pushes in, its going to be $85 to me with a $565 pot. Im not folding getting 6-1.

What hand would he call a bet with that he would check to me? TT? I think he wouldve folded that by now.
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Postby MVPSPORTS » Fri May 20, 2005 2:44 pm

I think there's only 2 reasons he'd check... either a. you have him beat, and he's probably not gonna call a raise, or b. he's slowplaying, and will checkraise and take all your money...

If its the former, I'll take the little less money and be happy to avoid the latter... Why give him another chance to bet into you if he does have anything...
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Postby Stelvask » Fri May 20, 2005 3:14 pm

I put him on [As][8s] or [As][7s]. with an outside chance at 77, 88, or TT

when a bad player flops a set and bets small, if they're raised, 9 times out of 10 they'll reraise. same thing for the turn, if in fact he flopped a set, when you reraised him he would have pushed.

He bet the turn when the bottom card paired, and he bet tiny, then called you raise leaving him with $210. if in fact he had a made boat at this point there's no way he doesn't at least min raise you

Still, if you bet the river you might as well push. if you do, the only hands i can see calling you are A5, [As][Qs], and a boat. maybe TT, but like you said, that should have folded earlier.

Long story short, i don't think the range of possible hands that he will call you with warrants the risk of losing to the boat. I vote for checking behind him and finding out what he's playing like this.
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Postby iceman5 » Fri May 20, 2005 3:29 pm

I checked behind and since it was at Prima, I wasnt able to see what he had right away. I'll look it up later and let you guys know what it was.


Oh, yeah...I won.
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Postby Jay123 » Fri May 20, 2005 3:34 pm

Without knowing any of the UTG's past plays lets deduce what an UTG may limp in with...

99,55,66, A9s,A6s,A5s

If he did hit a set I find it odd that he bet out right away UTG to scare anybody from playing as you think he might want to slowplay the set for the turn. However there is a flush draw on board and maybe he is very worried with 4 other limpers thinking someone has the nut flush draw, who knows.

Now when he calls your raise on the flop ICE thats a big sign that he has a piece of it and wants to keep you in the hand. Now of course we know you have the nuts at this point...now with the turn card pairing the board you no longer have the possible nuts as a fullhouse is now the nuts. This guy comes out betting but very lightly as if to say I know you reraised me but I am going to put a small bet in, nothing that will scare you off from drawing to your flush (if for some odd reason thats what he thinks you have after such a large flop reraise lol, maybe he is puting you an the AA preflop limp move) but enough to add an extra bit to the pot if you do make your flush. You reraise and once again he just calls..now if he were a true maniac he would have gone all in by now (with nothing of course), if he were on a draw he would have folded as this draw is way too expensive (or else he is a maniac once again and we dont know because we dont have his pokertracker stats handy here).

Now the river card comes out with a Q at this point I disregard the Queen as the main betting has taken place before this and if this guy was calling you down after putting up supposed blocking bets then he is either going to have to find a new hobby very quickly or he has some grasp of poker. Either way ICE my call is to just check behind him on the river and graciously accept the win if you do indeed have the best hand as you have put plenty of money in the pot.

If you do decide to just bet 125 more on the river as its checked back to you, you might as well go all in. The reason being that you just said you would go all in if he came over the top and the only way the guy is going to call you is with a hand that can beat yours or else once again he is a maniac! Take the money and run check here as you dont have the guaranteed nut hand. Its the correct move IMO.

P.S. If he did fake all those bets with nothing so be it, your not there to police him and you have a legitimate hand that you feel should hold up and needs no more betting with a very nice pot to win.
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Postby Stoneburg » Fri May 20, 2005 4:26 pm

I think a flush draw is most likely. After that, an overpair. I still would check behind though... I'm happy with the pot the way it is... maybe that's a bit weak.
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Postby Aisthesis » Fri May 20, 2005 5:15 pm

I dunno, I feel like you guys are assuming that the opponent is a complete and total idiot.

I still like checking the river with straight on a paired board. I also agree that if you bet, you can't fold being that far in.

But, just as an example from a WSOP, I remember Phil Helmuth having a near nut hand and check-calling on the river with the comment, "I have the nuts--no, I don't have the nuts, otherwise I would have raised." I thought that was a pretty healthy (and to me revealing) attitude. I think in fact he had A-high flush with a possible straight flush out there... And he also had the stack he was up against well covered.

You've got a great pot going here. Why get into possible trouble? I do also think that checking the river with the boat would be a bad play on opponent's part (as much strength as you've shown), but I don't like villain's play regardless of what he has.
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Postby AlexMR » Fri May 20, 2005 5:35 pm

Yes, Aisthesis is right.

Why you all assumed the guy is retarded. Ice didnt say that! If he was pulling for his str8 after the turn bet I think he is. But we dont know it yet.

Well, Ice said already that he won, so now we know he is an ass, regarless of his holding. He should never called those bets with less than a small full house of the str8, at least.

About Aisthesis comment that he doesnt like the way villain played regardless of his holding, I want to ask, what is he was on a monsterlike top full or four of kind? Knowing that ice liked his hand a lot, wouldnt it be a good move to check the river to wait for a bet and then push all in?

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Postby Aisthesis » Fri May 20, 2005 5:51 pm

I guess what I don't like here is his little turn bet, pretty much regardless. If it were me sitting on 55 for quads or else the boat, I'd either check it or bet half the pot. I can't see betting $16 into a $90 pot under any circumstances. Ice obviously likes his hand, as is already clear from the flop.

I just have a total aversion to these murky weak bets, which are barely even building a pot. I also wouldn't check the nuts on the river, but that's just me. It's not necessarily a bad move after all that action.

I really think that a HUGE mistake among a lot of even pretty good players is trying to get too tricky and deceptive on extremely strong hands. You have to bet to get money into the pot, and if no one has a hand, ok, you don't win much. Good example here is ice's play: He doesn't sit around betting nothing on the straight, which you don't get all that often. Sure, the field may fold here, but he's put together a huge winning pot here by just saying, "I have a strong hand. Try to beat it if you like."
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