I've only limped with AK on a few small occasions, and i decided to give it a shot in a session this evening.

Had i hit the flop, i could have been in trouble. Conversely, had i raised in the first place, i would have avoided what could have been a very nasty situation.

2/4nl on stars. EP has a full stack, LP has a $200 and sucks - plays 40% of the hands, PFA of 5, PFR% of 18, he's down $300 (these stats are all over the last 50 hands for him)

EP is straightforward - i've logged 600 hands with him until this point , VP$IP of 14%, PFA of 1.85, PFR% of 5. He's mostly an ABC player, and a fair enough winner. I don't see him getting very tricky very often is the point here.

I limp utg with AKo. EP raises to 16, LP calls. I contemplate reraising to represent AA, but i don't think there's enough of a chance of getting LP to fold here, so i call.

The flop comes J high, i check, EP bets $35, LP pushes, i muck, EP calls. With aces (lp had JT).

Now, had i raised to 16 like i normally would have with AK, EP would have reraised me, likely to about $40-$50, and i would have mucked, without the possibility of flopping TPTK against an overpair or trips.

Now, this brings me to the point of this post:

Ice -- lets say this flop comes K high, how would you proceede? Lets assume that EP, being an ABC player, is giong to play his aces like their aces, and not try to be tricky and put me on AK right off the bat. Also, what do you do when the flop comes A high here?


To me, because of this exact situation, limping with AK seems to be a recipe for disaster.
I also wonder how useful it is for players who have solid winning numbers on AK. While it seems useful as a way to help people slow down who lose money on it, it looks like a potentially dangerous move. .

For me, AKs after having it 90 times at 2/4 has a net winning of $483, AKo, after having had it 281 times has a net winning of $1,198, and that's after losing my stack twice with it in the exact same situation (being freerolled is incredibly ugly when they hit). In other words, if a player is winning with AK, rarely overplaying it, and feels comfortable enough as an aggressor, do you think it's worth it to limp with the hand? Are the situations in which you allow AQ into the pot and trick them into thinking they have you outkicked really enough to warant calling a raise and tricking yourself into thinking you have the best hand? Or perhaps just as dangerous, allowing a suited ace to see cheap and flop two pairs to your one?

I hope this whole post makes sense, in the end i'm just looking for advice on how someone might have played this particular hand if it had hit.

Well I'm not Ice but I'll give you my take on AK. I had a pretty in depth conversaion with TUP on how he plays AK and that changed the way I play it a little. I really like to mix up my play with AK, but as you pointed out a 7 way flop when you have AK is a recipe for disaster so you really have to have a good feel for the table, on a tight table I will limp EP and raise LP. On a loose table I raise EP and often call from LP, unless there are to many limpers for my taste, this is when I try to play my AK the same way I play AA. The reason I really like this way of playing AK is this. The major weakness of AK is that you only hit the flop a little better than 1/3 of the time, which means that against any pair you are going to be behind on the flop 2/3 of the time, yes you can at times bluff out the small pair. The biggest problem with the way most people play AK is thinking that it is a coin flip with a smaller pair. This is only partially true, it is a coin flip when you get to see all 5 cards, this doesnt help when you have more chips behind you. As my feel for reading my opponants gets better, I feel more and more comfortable playing AK slow and knowing when I have to fold TPTK. I dont know if this helped you any.

Stel, I think you're worrying too much about this.

Imo, the only reason to limp on AK is to avoid getting raised off the hand early in a tourney. If you're up against AA, depending on how AA plays it, you're in serious trouble--but so are you if you have KK. But the good new is, if someone has AA or KK, you're just not going to hit all that often.

I mean, what seems to happen in the scenario you're talking about is roughly this: tight EP whose play you pretty much respect raises, and you call. Now the flop comes K rags, and EP fires out into it. First question, then, if you can know your player, is whether he plays QQ or JJ like that. Well, regardless, you can't lay down that quickly. You have a good hand, and I think I'd probably raise here. So, now QQ and JJ fold, AK, AA and KK (unlikely, but possible) probably call, possibly re-raise, and a split pot is the most likely scenario in all actuality (9 AK hands, 1 KK, and 6 AA hands). I'd just play it defensively from there on out and get a feel for how confident your opponent is in his hand. To me, anyway, just accurately representing a strong hand right from the get-go seems to me the best way to avoid future troubles. If a credible opponent then claims to have you beat, then you probably are. Or am I just being way too simple-minded here?

Basically, it's a good hand, but not generally the nuts even if it hits, so I don't know, I think you have to lose some money on it if someone has a better hand when you do hit.

It sounds like you're really the one who should be giving the advice, as well as you're doing with it, though.

I limp AK UTG all the time.

If a typical tigh aggressive EP player like the one you described raises to $16. I fold. Easy as that.

Why call his raise? He has a high pair or AK if hes a predictable TAG "who doesnt get tricky" and hes raising from EP.

Assuming he doesnt have AA or KK, you will flop a pair to beat his QQ or JJ 1 time out of 3 and then you'll get no action ( you might check and hope he makes a continuation bet but thats all your gettgin from him).

So 2 times out of 3 you lose the extra $12. 1 time in 3 you win the small pot.

Every now and then you flop a king when he has AA or KK and you lose a bundle. Or you flop an Ace when he has AA and you lose a bundle.

If hes raising 1.85% of hands and hes playing 14% of his hands...he has AA or KK there. Easy fold to the preflop raise.

er, he raises 5% of the hands, not 1.85. the 1.85 was his post flop aggression factor.

Also, my VP$IP is 19%, and my PFR% is 5.45. these aren't really that much different than his, and AA and KK are certainly not the only hands i raise in his position. (by EP, i was UTG, there were two folds, and then he raised, so maybe more MP?).


do you ever call raises with AK after you limp then?

Yes, I do, but rarely when the raiser plays alot like I do.