We've been having some discussions here, with aisthesis and others, about times to fold KK... This is exactly why I don't... There's just TOO many players like these...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (10 handed)

UTG+1 ($50.32)
UTG+2 ($66.5)
MP1 ($92.9)
MP2 ($128.4)
MP3 ($81.18)
CO ($100)
Button ($98.6)
SB ($83.87)
Hero ($171.5)
UTG ($119.9)

Preflop: Hero is BB with , . CO posts a blind of $1. SB posts a blind of $0.5.
UTG calls $1, 3 folds, MP2 calls $1, 1 fold, CO (poster) raises to $4, 2 folds, Hero raises to $24, UTG folds, MP2 folds, CO calls $20.

Flop: ($52.50) , , (2 players)
Hero bets $40, Villian raises allin, Hero calls $35.

Turn: ($127.50) (2 players)

River: ($127.50) (2 players)

Final Pot: $127.50

Results in white below:
Hero has Kh Kd (two pair, kings and fives).
CO has Kc Js (one pair, fives).
Outcome: Hero wins $127.50.

Counterpoint:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed)

MP1 ($23.85)
MP2 ($96.3)
MP3 ($92)
CO ($104.6)
Button ($98)
SB ($51.5)
BB ($51.5)
UTG ($105.15)
UTG+1 ($93.6)
DaHitDogg ($95.6)

Preflop: DaHitDogg is UTG+2 with , . SB posts a blind of $0.5.
UTG calls $1, UTG+1 calls $1, DaHitDogg raises to $5, 5 folds, SB (poster) calls $4.50, 1 fold, UTG calls $4, UTG+1 raises to $50, DaHitDogg calls $90.60 (All-In), SB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $43.60 (All-In).

Flop: ($200.20) , , (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: ($200.20) (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($200.20) (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $200.20

Results in white below:
UTG+1 has Ac As (two pair, aces and eights).
DaHitDogg has Kc Kh (two pair, kings and eights).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins $196.70. DaHitDogg wins $2.

Villian was weak/tight. I was about 90% sure he had Aces, but kept having flashbacks to every hand I've seen where some yahoo turns over 9s or AK.

DahittDog, the big difference in your hands is that your opponent limp reraised while MVP's raised from the cutoff. Limp reraising is a much stronger sign of aces then raising preflop and calling a reraise. There are too many hands that the villian could be pushing in MVP's hand to make it so he has to call that flop all in while yours is tougher. I not saying I could lay it down as it is tough but yours feels like AA while the other MVP's guy is just a jackass.

I personally can't see where ever laying down KK preflop in the online limits I play ($25 and $50) is a +ev move. I see people push heavy with QQ on down against KK more than 75% of the time. I will take the hit in the rare case that I am against AA in order to clean up against QQ, JJ, and 22.

devil, I think you're absolutely right, and you probably wouldn't get into much trouble even at the $100 level, which is the highest I've played online.

I do think you can cut your losses occasionally against know tight players--but even those (as noted in some current threads here), will consider re-raising AK. Although I don't see a good tight player pushing in to a re-raise from another tight player holding only AK.

Playing through that situation (and there are very few player for whom I have sufficient respect to make this move), I'm guessing that one might have a scenario somewhat like this, as "most difficult case":

You're on the button or in a blind with KK (I'm going to try to settle it PF) at a .50/1 table:

Iffy UTG raises to $3, and MP, for whom you have a lot of respect, makes it $12. If you're pretty sure MP will re-raise AK, you're probably still good to go with a $36 bet or so, then folding to an all-in (if AK does that, it's not a player for whom I have that much respect). If MP is very tight but not that aggressive with AK, I think one can consider folding here. The worst he's got is probably KK, he's definitely not pursuing QQ any further if you re-raise (on the outside chance he re-raised QQ in the first place, which he might be doing against loose UTG despite your read on him), and since you have KK already, he in all probability has AA.

I will say this: If tight player will make this move with AA/KK or AK only, the EV already looks like this:

6 AA hands: You lose $36
1 KK hand: You may lose $36 if he re-raises, but this is unlike anyway. I'm going to count it as a wash, because I think tight player himself should fold his KK to you, for whom he also has respect.
12 AK hands: You win $15 ($12 from tight player), but you also might get a loose call from UTG, who very likely doesn't have AA.

So, you're still somewhat on the losing end of it here, unless UTG helps you out, but not by much.

Bottom line imo: You have to have ENORMOUS respect for the re-raiser to lay KK down.

Ais... I just don't play w/ anyone who I have that much respect for at the $100NL games... And, moreover, I really don't think most people pay two bits of attention to the fact that I play tight... When I raise KK or AA, I almost always get a call, even though I haven't played in an hour...

I totally agree: No way I am going to lay down kings PF! Not here at NL$25.

I made a post a few days ago talking about how the poker rooms were getting fishier and fishier. I am seeing too many players pushing with all kinds of crap. Besides, sometimes you will win against AA and that just feels sooooooooooooo nice.




I was playing a few hands two nighst ago at NL$50 (yes I am playing 0.5BB ocasionally) at Noble poker and ended up allin against Aces and flopped a king We both had over 65. That was so nice!



AlexMR

Alex... I would think that was hilarious, except that I just pushed w/ AA on a K high flop, got called by AK, and he pulled his trips on the turn... GOD I HATE PARTY POKER!!!!!