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2 $5/$10 hands

Hand analysis. Post your trouble hands here

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Postby GopherGuts » Sat May 28, 2005 1:23 am

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Postby Mad Genius » Sat May 28, 2005 1:54 am

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Postby Smokin'Al » Sat May 28, 2005 3:52 am

In hand 1, he's pulled a stop and go, which I generally see played by reasonable made hands who think their opponent is drawing. (Which is a possible alternative interpretation of your min raise, trying to see all 5 cards on the cheap).

Therefore, he's either drawing to 3 outs (most likely), or you're way behind to trips or a full house.

So I prefer flat-calling the turn, he'll probably check the river and call a smallish value bet (which he has to interpret as a possible bluff from a missed draw). Raising the turn only seems to achieve losing more the few times he has a big hand here.
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Postby iceman5 » Sat May 28, 2005 8:02 am

WOW. You guys really hate these plays. Im surprised. These are both completely different from how I normally play and I did it on purpose to see what would happen if I tried to represent a set in both hands.

Hand 1..I still really like. I think Im ahead but I dont want to see an overcard.

Hand #2...Im really torn about. I cant decide if I like it or not. I really thought I was ahead, but I hated the flop and I didnt want to play past the flop. I cant think of any cards that would be very good except for a red 2 or 3.

Any high card or any club is trouble. Its either going to make playing the hand very tough or kill my action and I wont know which. If I think he has AQ then you would think its best to just let him bet my hand for me, but what happens when a Q shows up? Do I second guess my read? What about a T? I dont even like a K that much.

Anyway, he folded to my all in. Actually, they both folded the turn.

Ive heard alot of what not to do in hand #2, but not what you WOULD do.
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Postby Aisthesis » Sat May 28, 2005 2:09 pm

Ok, so it worked... :)

And he obviously didn't have JJ... on hand #2.

The "representing a set" idea is rather interesting here. I suppose his initial re-raise, if he believed you, was then just putting you to the test, and you did take down a good pot as net result.

But at awfully high risk (which would make me very uncomfortable).

I guess I've at least already said what I would do: Raise it on the flop to $125 or so.

I also don't see THAT many scare cards out there. Q is definitely one, although I'm not just throwing away the hand to a Q. I wonder what the guy did have? QQ? KK? AK? AQ?
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Postby poker2006 » Sun May 29, 2005 4:59 am

I usually raise at least 3x the intial taise, so in the second hand I would probably raise to $90-100. If he still reraises me I would most likely fold. In retrospect it does look like he had KK/QQ, your min raise just taunted him and he reraised thinking you didn't have the ace.
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Postby palman » Mon May 30, 2005 8:57 pm

I'm upset that I had to go for a wedding right when I first replied to this thread. But the main reason I hate the min-raise in the first hand is that you state 1) that you are likely ahead, which I agree with and 2) you know he'll call a raise.

Doesn't that just sound logically wrong? You know he'll call a decent raise as an underdog (most likely a 3 or 5 outer) and for some reason you don't want this to happen?

The only rationale that could really support this line of thinking is that you don't want to get in a situation where you risk a significant part of your stack on the hand, but even with your current line you're committing 40% of your stack on the hand. Just making a normal raise on the flop and a standard lead out on the turn you're not going to risk significantly more here, so that doesn't really work.

Basically, in comparing the two plays, with the min-raise you are risking almost the same amount of your stack just to milk another $30 out of him (since you're expecting him to check-fold the turn) but you're a big enough favorite to warrant raising it to $100 or so and getting another $70 out of him instead.

Combine that with the fact that you're perfectly happy with him folding the flop (especially since the min-raise only gets you an extra $30), and the rest of the deck being a scare card.... min-raising is taking on too much risk for the small reward of $30. (whether you are representing a set or not... I wouldn't expect him to fold 2 pair here, or a pair and a straight draw on the turn)

Throw in the fact that it would be a grave mistake to bet both the turn AND the river to really represent the set, which would be needed to get 2 pair to fold, since your hand is likely good, and it's not likely enough that a better hand will fold OR a worse hand will call you on the river to warrant betting out on the river. So there is a strong chance you are going to be seeing a showdown with this hand.

In general, the best time to go for betting patterns where you're trying to represent a strong hand like a set, like in this hand, are times when you're hoping for a better hand to fold. Your hand is good enough that this isn't the case. You've got a hand thats likely got him drawing to a few outs.... why are you TRYING to represent a monster and get him to fold?
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Postby palman » Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:12 pm

Ice- I'm interesting in what you think about my last reply. Ice or anyone of course.
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Postby iceman5 » Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:33 pm

I agree with your last post Palman. It seemed like a good idea at the time, but now seems pretty dumb.
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Postby soweak » Tue Jun 07, 2005 12:58 am

Ice I'm a long time lurker and I have read your stuff on here and on UPF/2+2 so I wanted to give some feedback (even though I'm onlyt a NL200 player). Comments and criticism are encouraged :)

I mainly want to focus on hand 1, because I don't really like the min raise line very much. Most of the other posters have said that it's not a good line because 2/3's of the deck are scare cards.

One thing I've noticed is you're trying to define your hand as a monster, but nobody else has defined thier hand as to something drawing completly dead. I think the SB could logically lead out with any number of hands you don't want to see the turn (T8o or 86o being some of the worse ones). When you make that min raise back at this player with a "set" you basically are giving him 4:1 on his call, plus since you're the aggressor he's probabally got good implied odds, and with the price you're setting him with that raise he's not going to lay down very many hands.

I wonder what your action is if the turn is Qh and it's checked to you. Are you now racing to the river cheaply or continuing to bet despite the scare card? How do you react to a check raise. Since you state you have no reads, what are these lines?
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Postby iceman5 » Tue Jun 07, 2005 7:21 am

I was going to bet/raise no matter what card hit the turn.
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