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OKayyyyyy... 400NL and not too far out of my depth (maybe)..

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OKayyyyyy... 400NL and not too far out of my depth (maybe)..

Postby Felonius_Monk » Sat May 28, 2005 5:57 pm

$400 NL, yep I was bored.

So I pick up KK two off the button. My stack is about $350. A guy I've not seen hardly play a hand in 30 minutes EP make the minimum raise preflop (bizarre indeed) from the second seat. One MP guy calls, I decide I'll raise it back pretty heavily, and make it just over a pot sized raise at this point. The SB calls (dreadful player, haven't seen him NOT play a hand so far virtually!), preflop raiser makes another minimum raise (hmmmm....), MP player drops. At this point I'm largely unsure wtf is going on, so I call the $60-odd to see the flop and I guess I'll go from there. At lower levels I just move in here, but that SECOND min raise had me utterly confused and somehow it's tough without looking at the guy face to face to know what he has. In my heart I think I know it's AA and I think I know I'm in trouble. My heart, like Phil Hellmuth's, often seems to be right, and regularly makes me, when I catch a bad beat or two, whine like a schoolgirl who realises her favourite boy band's just split up because all the members are gay and have been furtively blowing each other off for the last 4 years under the guise of being unthreatening straight teenagers with nice haircuts and manicured nails. SB calls also.

Flop comes

A[s] T[h] K[s]

SB bets out $80 and the EP player moves all in for what is a bit over $200 left in my stack. Can anyone really, REALLY, drop this? SB is truly appalling and everyone at this table is fully aware of that fact. Results to follow if I remember to put them in!

Monk
xxxxx
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A licky boom boom down.
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A licky boom boom down." - Snow, 1993
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Postby Felonius_Monk » Sat May 28, 2005 6:00 pm

AND, don't say move in preflop. Think beyond the envelope here, guys. Making weak calls in an all-in/fold situation is the sort of "out of the box" thinking that's seriously +EV in this game.

OK, that's bullshit. I didn't move all in or fold preflop, deal with it! :D
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"Informer, you no say daddy me snow me Ill go blame,
A licky boom boom down.
Detective mon said daddy me snow me stab someone down the lane,
A licky boom boom down." - Snow, 1993
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Postby Rhound50 » Sat May 28, 2005 6:59 pm

Monk, I think you have played enough poker that you knew in your heart that you were beat after that flop. I think you have to fold here, this guy hasnt played a hand in a long time and sounds like he is weak tight. What hands does a weak tight player make that play with??? AA or KK, obviosly he doesnt have KK. This is one of those times you just have to fold a set. I like the way you played this, the $60 min raise was giving you odds to call for set value, assuming that if he pushes all in preflop you are going to fold.
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Postby rdale » Sat May 28, 2005 11:44 pm

You have one out the times you are wrong!

Not to brag but I Forest Gumped quads on an AA that was oddly played yesterday... I don't think I should brag about that.

Tell you the truth someone is going to have to show me QJ or AA, I'm losing my money here or quitting for the night. I can't stand to make these kinds of laydowns and I will tilt harder if I do :) unless my heart is screaming AA, there has to be no question in my mind that he holds rockets for me to be comfortable with laying down.
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Postby kennyg » Sat May 28, 2005 11:55 pm

I would be nervous as hell..but with second set..i don't see how you can fold.
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Postby Mad Genius » Sun May 29, 2005 12:00 am

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Postby kennyg » Sun May 29, 2005 12:14 am

"I'll take KennyGs advice before Sklanskys every time. "
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Postby Ricardooon » Sun May 29, 2005 12:22 am

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Postby Aisthesis » Sun May 29, 2005 3:29 am

Hmmm... pretty weird, I'll say.

If I can avoid the question somewhat, is there any chance of a side-pot here against maniac? I guess he could have QJ to make the whole thing even stranger...

Honestly, I'm not sure that "has hardly played a hand in 30 minutes" is enough for me to assume AA. There can be a lot of reasons for that, and a lot of players like this can have very distorted views concerning hand values.

Am I understanding this correctly here? EP raises to $8, MP calls, pot is now hence $21 (?), you make it $24, SB calls, EP makes it $48? This has to be wrong if you had to call $60. Anyhow, if this was the action, I think your re-raise is a bit passive.

Frankly, all this PF action gets way too muddled for me. Tight opponent or not, I think I'd just push PF. This whole minimum re-raise b.s. just stinks too much for me. If he really has AA, ok, you can at least draw all the way to the river, and, if not, you're ahead.

Imo the whole idea of the KK re-raise is putting AA to the test against a tight player, or else dragging along someone else (and this "playing few hands" doesn't to me say that he won't make this kind of move with QQ or even JJ). If you DO think he has AA, you can call the minimum re-raise to try to set at that point (but setting with the A on the board changes nothing--you haven't outdrawn him).

I'd like to get it settled PF whether he has AA or not. If the issue isn't settled, I think just push it given the opportunity (after this second b.s. minimum re-raise). The fact that SB has been dragged along up to here actually increases the value of pushing KK, I think.

So, to try to make this a bit shorter in summary: If you want to call the all-in here, you should have pushed PF when you had the opportunity. The situation simply hasn't changed (with the exception of the possible made straight, which SB might have).
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Postby poker2006 » Sun May 29, 2005 3:34 am

This is a tough spot, but I think I would fold it. I haven't seen too many players reraising a reraise preflop with AK, which you would beat. I only see someone going all in here with AA,AK, and the more unlikely hands TT,QJ.
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Postby iceman5 » Sun May 29, 2005 8:11 am

Almost this exact hand happened to me a while back. amin raise preflop, I reriase then he min raises me again.

Flop AKT. I got stacked by AA ( I had KK).

I knew he had AA but couldnt fold. I posted the hand at 2+2 and asked if I shouldve trusted my read and folded and they all thought I was crazy. I still think its a fold though with that preflop action.
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Postby HopyMSU » Sun May 29, 2005 10:21 am

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Postby k3nt » Tue May 31, 2005 1:33 pm

Results????
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Postby Stelvask » Tue May 31, 2005 4:36 pm

ok. i'm going to get some heat for this, but this is one of the few situations in which i muck KK preflop.

When he min reraises you, you no longer have implied odds to draw for a set against what looks very much to be aces. What other hand would he reraise you with here? From your description, QQ is out, as it AK. that leaves AA and the other KK.

Lets say the flop comes with all rags. Do you still play for your stack here hoping that he has QQ or JJ? If people are going to tell you to fold on an AKx flop, and if your gut is telling you that your behind AA on that flop, then you simply have to muck it preflop. your stacks aren't deep enough to warrant playing the hand when you believe your behind here.
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Postby palman » Tue May 31, 2005 5:47 pm

Pot is too large to fold here. If both of you were deeper then perhaps you fold, but you didn't even have a full buyin to start the hand.

Yes, yes all signs point to him having AA, but the random idiot factor is too inherent in poker to fold. 30 minutes of seeing someone fold in a 10 handed game isn't enough information here to warrant folding IMO.
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