So dahittdog and I were talking today while we were playing. I told him that Q3s was the immortal nuts. To prove my point...I decided to raise it here on the button. Watch this magical hand play out.

Stacks $400
MP $150 -fish
LP $400 - no read at the time

couple of limpers. I raise it to $20 on the button with [3h] (don't try this at home kids.) MP and LP guy call. Stack sizes are important here so keep those in mind.

FLOP $70
[7h][Ts]
MP bets $25. LP makes it $80. I was gonna just go ahead and fold..but then had a LAG thought. If I just called...fish was bound to move all-in (he only had $130 left)...then LP would probably either fold or call. If I just call..he has to think I hold a monster, right?? Then I could just move all-in overtop lol.

So I call. To my dismay...MP fish only calls.


TURN $310
[7h][Ts][4d]

Fish checks. MP moves all-in and has me covered! I cannot call. I fold. fish calls.

RIVER $alot
[7h][Ts][4d][6h]

Fish shows [Jd]. LP guy shows [9h]
I had LP completely dominated.


I thougth LP's play was great here. Well..I did.... until I realized that since the fish was calling no matter what....he had no folding equity. And since he has to hit something to win...and he has to think I have something like AK or better...well it doesn't make much sense. He drove me out of the pot and knew that he would be called anyway by the fish.

Hard to explain...but he really can't put me on two hearts there. So his bet to drive me out makes no sense. There was no way fish was folding when he only had $50 left.


ugh...way too complicated. thoughts?

This was my only LAG play of the day btw.

Unless he know I have the flush draw, of course

Very, very complicated hand. That's what I get for playing Q3s. lol.

I've also decided there is no way in hell I will ever call a flop raise that big with my draw. I know I was thinking I could buy it on the turn..but that is really stupid thinking. At least against these types of opponents. I should have just folded (or at least raised) NOT CALL!!!... I have learned my lesson.

Sorry for being a bit fick here, can you explain what you mean by folding equity here?

Rich

I definitely think we're analyzing this hand way beyond anything the LP had time to think of so it's kind of hard to rationlize exactly what his plan was.

This said, if viewed from a different angle you might be able to see the fold equity in the LP's allin move. If you assume the LP will get to see the river for cheap, then yes he would want to keep more players in the pot. But if he faces anything over about a $200 turn bet then he begins losing pot odds to stay in given him believing he has at least 13 live outs, potentially 15 if no one has a set or 2 pair.

I know you're pretty aggressive at the table Kenny, so if this player thought there was a good chance you'd make a move on the pot if he checked it or weak bet, then him making a preemptive allin would be smart. He's put the decision to you giving him a decent chance you might fold, but if you don't he's still got outs....at least 13 if he's still presuming you have at least top pair. This becomes a +EV play given the fold equity despite him not having correct pot odds when faced by an allin call or bet by you....he'd be getting about 2.2:1 ($660:300) odds but need about 2.5:1 figuring there was a good chance if you're calling that he's down to about 13 live outs. The possibility of you folding naked aces or maybe even low 2 pair that you might have otherwise pushed hard w/ makes up for his lack in correct pot odds. He then has the added bonus if you do fold, of getting heads up w/ the short stack w/ greater then 7:1 pot odds.

BTW, I think I understand the concept of fold equity, but if I've completely mutilated it or incorrectly adapted it....sorry, just let me know. Also, I've heard Q3 is only an immortal hand if you're a busboy from San Francisco.

lol. i'm just gonna go with jack on this one.

I tried anaylzing this hand over and over...and it just confuses the hell out of me. It's one of those hands I don't even wanna think about anymore.