Ok, I just read this entire thread (while trying to multi-table LHE). I'm going to post my opinions even though I usually stay out of most of the AG threads.

I'm going to say a few things first.

A) I resent to the fullest being refered to as a "refuge" from PFO. I wasn't active there when everything went down, but I've done extensive research and have found, both in conversations with KiDRed and other Mods there, that what happened to Marm was a mistake (IMHO). I came here after finding out that Marm, Pok, Beavis, Growlers and Ant (sorry if i missed a few, I'll explain in a moment) were here. There are certain people who make a forum feel like a "home" and at PFO, these guys were it. Without them, PFO sucks...anybody who reads it will know this because there is very little serious poker discussion taking place anymore.

B) If you refer to anybody who joins your forum as a "refuge" for any reason, then I'm automatically going to label you as racist. if "BTPers" want to look "down" on the "PFOers" then that's their right. From what I've seen since I've been active here...BTPers (with several notable exceptions) do not go out of their way to make this place feel comfortable to newbies. Useing the term Refuge is just an example of this.

C) A statement was made that most of the BTPers (assume quotes) have gotten to know each other fairly well, stayed at each others places and such...So WHAT? I do not join forums to find bunkmates. I join poker forums to get advice to improve my game. I join hunting forums to get advice on my hunting...yada yada yada...if you've become one great big happy family, great, but since you're in a public medium, you might expect people from outside of the family to find you and join. Saying that you'll take this statement from this guy, but not the exact same statement from somebody else is close minded. In my opinion that means that you will automatically assume (I use that word very sparingly so take it for it's full merrit) that somebody you don't know means you ill will...that's elitist to the extreme.

D) A section like AG will automatically draw flame and fire and insults and all the stuff that I've heard you want to avoid. IF this place was design so people could talk poker, why even include it? Since the main objective is to discuss poker, wouldn't it be better if posts in AG weren't used as a reason for banning somebody? let's face it, if they can talk poker rationally, then they are a asset to the community.

E) (getting long winded here, I know, but I was camping with my son all weekend so I'm just now catching up...btw, caught a 5.5lbs Small Mouth Bass 22in in length...she was a beaut) It was stated that their is "liency (sp) given to members who've been known a while, but in the next breath, PFOers (assume quotes) are accused of defending Beavis because they've known him longer...isn't that a bit of a double standard?

E1) Shouldn't those of us who've known him longer have a bit more to say on the subject? how can you pass judgement on somebody you barely know, then argue that judgement with somebody who's known him a long time...again, double standard...protect your own and attact those who are different? forgive me if that's inflamitory but that's what it seems.

F) While I can understand some national tensions and differing politcal views (not going to express mine because honestly, they're none of your business), using them for banning from a poker forum is just childish (see D)

G) Comparing PFO to BTP is an excercise in futility. Comparing 2+2 to BTP or PFO is the same thing. They are different forums with different goals. If the goal of this forum is to collect a bunch of like minded, similar thinking poker players to sit around and "discuss" poker then so be it...get you're core group together, ban everybody else and have fun...see you at the table. If you want differing opinions, then yeah....arguements are going to happen...if you're open to the public, then yeah, you're going to have immature people join...you should be focused on bringing them along, helping them learn helping them become better, not banning them...especially over politiacal, not poker, views.

H) Freedom of speach does not require anything even remotely resembling responsiblity. Anybody who says that, doesn't live in the US. Freedom of speach is exactly how it sounds...The right to express your opinion, regardless of what it is...heck, it doesn't even have to be your opinion, it could be something you completely don't agree with but say just get the other guy to think his position through more clearly. Freedome of Speach is a Gift...A gift bought with the blood of many men. Anybody who thinks that it needs to handled with responsiblity just doesn't understand, probably because they are somewhere other then the US.


Having said all that...and my fingers are starting to cramp, I will say that BTP's LHE isn't a bad place...unfortunately, it's still not the greatest. If the goal of this forum is to grow, to become a community with many views and many opinions (because they make for the best poker conversations) then yeah, there are going to be people who crawl up under your skin and bother you...if they can talk poker (even if it's wrong) then in my opinion, they are a valued member of the community...

What I'm seeing seems to be more of a "we'll (read that as I for all those who voted for the ban) make an example to bring all those we don't like around to our way of thinking or keep them out of those threads completely.

I will have a hard time posting anything in a forum where my opinion is going to be held against me. If that is the way this place is run, please PM me so I can start finding a new place to improve my poker game.

Trons:

Calm down and read the thread again. The situation is fluid. Beavis was not banned for his political views; he was banned for the way he treated others and the way he expressed those opinions. Notably, the two most liberal mods on this forum were against the banning, and the most conservative were in favor of it. Politics and viewpoints had nothing to do with it. It is all about playing nicely and treating others well.

Beavis admitted in a post that he makes posts with the intent of pissing people off (I have not bothered to go back and find it, but everyone remembers it). He even used "Euro Greenie Weenies" in a thread title. That is flaming, plain and simple. Additionally, his arguments tend to be based upon strawman and red herring fallacies. He could use a rudimentary course in logic.

As for your personal feelings on the issues: most of your posts have been in the LHE forum. Most of the **ahem** asylum seekers/refugees/whatever you want to be called since it describes the situation perfectly where a dozen or so posters migrated here from PFO en masse - are active in the LHE forum, and I really don't think that you can have any complaint about the way that forum is run and the advice that is given there.

This board has historically been moderated with a fairly heavy hand. We are making an effort to return to that standard to make BTP a place where we can discuss poker, and yes, have an off topic forum where anything else can be discussed. However, that must be conducted in a civil fashion. Flaming is not going to be tolerated any more.

At any rate, the situation is fluid, the last chapter has not been written.

You are welcome to stay; you are free to leave.

I will say this and only this about the situation.

I have been the most active poster in the other games section since I started playing stud (late 2005/early 2006).

Beavis made it from "initial stud h/l post" to "eat shit juskimo and die" in 4 posts. Never in the year and a half I have been posting in that forum (and talking to most, if not all the btpers who play these games) has a post in the other games section gotten out of hand.

Beavis is the only poster to get a thread in other games reported to the mods. The only one.

If anyone has any further questions about any stud variants, or any other games, feel free to contact me at the below numbers.