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6max hand selection

Postby Aisthesis » Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:39 pm

ok, finally tried some 6max today, and I think I'm going to give it a more serious look.

PF, what I've been doing is raising pretty much any of my FR starting hands from any position. As to CB, well, that's another story, but I've been fairly cautious. That, in theory, should make me something like 17/17 or somewhere in there.

My real question is what to do with a bunch of marginal hands that I was trying to play and then seemed to consistently get raised off of.

Specifically, at least in the last 2 seats as well as SB, it seems to me like AX, KXs, middle (offsuit) connectors and hands like maybe Q8-Q9s should be worth a limp in 6max.

How do you guys deal with these hands? Play them only if a limp is reasonably possible?

Anyhow, the tables went through several phases. During most of them, I'd say I was just wasting my money trying to limp if I didn't want to call a raise. So, one strategy would be this: As long as the table is so raisy that you're just folding 75% of the time even in LP, then don't play them except maybe in SB. If there's a reasonable opportunity to limp, then go ahead and limp them (?).

Also, one guy to my left was so raisy (34o, KXs as examples) that I wonder whether the occasional limp-re-raise on AXo wouldn't have been a reasonable play (as well as probably 77+ and KQ). This was all at the .25/50 btw.
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Postby DoctorHandles » Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:46 pm

Don't limp, it's absolutely horrible. It completely defines your hand and makes you so incredibly easy to play against. Just raise hands like KXs, 9To, Q9s as the bottom of your standard opening CO range, and then if blinds are super nitty widen your range or good/super aggressive tighten it.

You're basically asking "How do I raise the bottom of my opening range and be sure I won't get 3-bet off then?" which is just a silly question. Obviously you're gonna have to fold the bottom of your range to a 3-bet, but your opponent is playing against your entire range not just the bottom of it even if that's what you have in that particular hand.
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Postby iceman5 » Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:06 pm

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Postby DoctorHandles » Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:12 pm

You're not going to have enough good hands to balance out all that crap you're limping with.
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Postby Triple B » Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:33 pm

I think limping is pretty terrible in most cases mainly because it is almost impossible to balance your ranges (especially if you try limpraising, and if you don't limpraise you are going to get raised out of your seat all day long). To further complicate it, you not only need to balance your limping range, but also your raising range. You can just limp KK UTG occasionally and then say you sometimes limp big hands, so its all good. You have to also sometimes raise your limping hands too. So overall it seems overly complicated, pointless and its just not going to be profitable against good players. I have seen lots of reasons why limping is not horrible but I don't remember seeing why it is good or superior to raising.

Anyway, in most good players opinions, hands like JTo, Q9s, or whatever are clear raises in the CO under normal conditions. Once you get to crappy suited kings you might only raise them from the button. The key is to adjust your ranges to the players in the blinds. If they call too much preflop but fold too much postflop, then raise all sorts of crap in position. If they call too much postflop, then tighten up a bit. If they are tight preflop and never/rarely reraise, then steal at will. If they reraise a lot, then tighten up.
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Postby Aisthesis » Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:32 am

I honestly don't see how ice can be wrong about limping at least sometimes. I mean, why completely exclude a betting option?

All of you guys are way more experienced at 6max than I am, but I really think that if you get auto-raised for a limp, then, yes, limp re-raise KK, etc. You get a lot more in the pot, probably fold out a bunch of junky AX hands that can beat you and may win a sizeable pot PF with no contest.

I dunno, I really think it all has to do with table texture--and in the context of the one guy who was always raising me, I think I should've just folded most of my limp hands and waited for large-ish ones to limp re-raise with.

Another group where I rather like a limp-call: very small PP (22-55/66). I'll also raise those sometimes, but I think limping with them more often than not is pretty reasonable, since they hit rarely and you're going to be looking at overcards for sure.

Anyhow, just looked at my overall VPIP with only a few hands but probably accurate the way I'm playing: 32.80% VPIP, 16.00% raises. I presumably need to raise a bit more and limp a bit less, but I'm rather disinclined to view limping as complete taboo.

That being said, I really don't object to the substance of what Triple B is saying--namely adjusting to your opponents.

Here's an example from the table I just left: VERY limpy table, including one guy who would limp like AJ or ATs and was playing basically FR at 6max. With that guy in, I'd be happy to limp A6o OTB but not to raise (I still would raise my usual 16%) just to keep the pot small. He'd always call the raise and probably had the better hand--and at THAT table, no one was pouncing on limps. I think the main thing is adjusting quickly to the specific table configuration and then taking it from there.

Anyhow, the 50s seem pretty bad and much too passive (with an occasional maniac), but I think I'll try to get my feet wet in that game before trying to move up. I guess in my original post I was more influenced by having a maniac to my left in my first run at this, whereas my other tables this evening made limping pretty easy.
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Postby black_knight6 » Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:27 am

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Postby Stoneburg » Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:21 am

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Postby GodlikeRoy » Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:41 am

Poker is silly.

It is not enough to be good at chess, you must also play well.

Somewhere in the world someone is training when you are not. When you race him, he will win.

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Postby excession » Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:49 am

I sat and watched a CR video yesterday with some of the pros messing around at a $100 table. They stored all the HH and then put it through a replayer with skype commentary, so the viewer could see all the cards.
Time and time again the EP player with a small pair open raised and was re-raised by an amount that meant he felt he couldn't set mine (as the re-raiser had a huge range and was good enough to get away) so he folded - well once the guy with 22 pushed but got a call out of JJ).
Open raising in EP with the vast majority of their range on that table was a clear error and yet they never even though about limping so they would get to see a flop with their pair or baby connectors 'coz open limping makes baby Jesus cry'.

I also watched a Daut video where his blind steal % was 50%.
I know from short stacking that anyone who is stealing more than 25% is basically a money box for me - it just isn't mathematically possible given my range and their range for them to come out ahead in the long run if they insist on open stealing over my blind or (even worse) raising my limps (which will tend to be with top 10% hands) (I have an auto-shove over any 25%+ raiser for about +4PTBB/hand from my pokerstove calcs).
I also know that open limping is critical to short-stacking success (as you almost always want to be the one 3 betting not the one calling an effective shove)

So I can think of two situations (outlined above) where open-limping is demonstrably preferable to open-raising.

A third would probably be from EP in a no foldem low stake game - the CR style is demonstrably harder to make work when your EP pfr gets 5 callers who then won't let go of any piece of the flop.

Now if you are talking about not open-raising in LP I would agree - you need to have an excellent and very particular read or unusual stack size involved etc. to not raise there, but in EP it is by no means demonstrably true that escalating the pot with a marginal hand OOP is always such a 'no brainer' play.

Watching the CR pros playing 30/25 or whatever I was also struck by how much of a crapshoot they are making it - if you are the best player at the table you should be looking to maximise your post-flop edge - these guys ended up playing hands like Kill Phil would advise to take away skill differences - jam in those PFR's and negate position and skill advantage etc.

If you get into the sort of 3 and 4 betting war where a 4 bet push with K4s is a good idea, how is that maximising the skillful player's edge?
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Postby hard2tel » Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:20 am

It doesnt matter if the limper is limp calling with a better hand than you're isolating with...most of the time you're gonna be able to take the pot down with a cb or 2 barrel.

Why are we basically set mining with 22-66? So all u do is limp call and then fold to a cb or 2 barrel 90% of the time?

excession- good shortstackers are few and far between. But if a good one is on my left obv im gonna tighten my open range. CTS and Bobbofitos have attempted to steal % of like 55-56% btw. and im sure the guys on cardrunners were not exactly going for the +ev spots in that vid..just gambling it up

but my point is at a really aggro table the best solution isnt limping/limp 3-betting,,its just tightening up...at least at 50nl where people arent paying attention. although limpreraising has merit but just limp calling ew...

The only time i limp is when someone limps in EP and there's 2-3 players who love to squeeze behind me...or if the EP limper is shortstacked and/or has been limp/3-betting
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Postby GodlikeRoy » Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:31 am

Ex,

When you're playing with a shortstack or with shortstacks at the table, things change. Your raising range OTB with a shortstack in the BB should go way way down as you basically pointed out.

Limping definitely does have its place and to never do it because the CR people say not to is, well, silly.

That said, OPEN limping, is, in general, bad. Open limping OTB isn't too bad. Open limping when everyone behind you is very very passive and/or have shorter stacks and/or will stack off lightly in limped pots and/or aren't good at handreading, is less bad.

Limping behind someone with a marginal/speculative hand isn't too bad.

You really need to be able to identify the specific situations where limping is better than raising or folding though, as they're generally far and few between (and become much rarer as you move up in stakes).

Limping as a general strategy seems bad to me. And thus limping with hands like KK seems bad to me. If you're limping against someone who can hand-read effectively and is a good enough player, it is probably -EV to be limping any sort of range there (even if that range includes KK, 78s, AJ and 22). No matter how much you mix it up against a good player who has position, you will lose. Against a bad player, you can just limp behind with 22 or 78s and not worry about balancing your range, you can raise with KK and AJ and whatever and that should be enough.

Everything in poker is relative.
Poker is silly.

It is not enough to be good at chess, you must also play well.

Somewhere in the world someone is training when you are not. When you race him, he will win.

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Postby iceman5 » Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:34 am

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Postby GodlikeRoy » Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:51 am

Poker is silly.

It is not enough to be good at chess, you must also play well.

Somewhere in the world someone is training when you are not. When you race him, he will win.

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Postby black_knight6 » Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:07 am

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