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Postby Molina » Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:14 pm

Bill,

I don't particularly want to go into the pro vs anti gun argument in depth, I've heard both sides endlessly and can see each sides case.

But I'll render that last sentence obsolete,

Regarding the issue of the safety of nations being improved from attack by other countries, as is the motivation by arming Switzerland and Israel, not based on internal security. Switzerland is surrounded by countries it is not allies with, nor does it have any particular enemies, it's a small country that protects itself better by the comlusory enlistment of its youth and their subsequent gun ownership.

Israel however is pretty much surrounded by countries that be quite keen to attack them were it not for their friendship with the US and their nuclear capabilities (This I assume to be a fact based statement and not opinion, I really don't want to start debating the middle east or nuclear weapons).

The two countries that are usually cited as support for gun ownership both require a period of military service of their 17-20 year olds and are both small countries compared to those that surround them. Obviously unable to depend solely on their own armies there is tactical merit in having citizens who can use such weapons. I don't see Canada or Mexico as threats to the US.

The main issue I feel that Israel and Switzerland cannot be compared to the US is that there generally isn't the the huge wealth and educational divide there is in america. I think it can be generalised that violent crime can be distilled down to two very (I repeat, very) general reasons, the pursuit of wealth through violent crime, or the lack of intelligence be able to realise that road rage is best not solved by a swift injection of lead to the brain.

I don't really see how comparing Vermont to NY, LA and DC is an issue of the local gun laws, Vermont has a population of 620,000 compared to 8 million for NY city and 3.8 million in the city of Los Angeles alone. Cities of such size have a greater divide between rich and poor, I've never heard of the levels of inner city poverty and the ensuing gang violence in Vermont than I have in NY, LA or DC. Maybe that's because I don't live in the US.

If the simple picture is viewed, some of the poorest countries have very high levels of gun deaths (Sierra Leone, El Salvador) and rich technologically advanced countries have much lower gun deaths (Israel, Switzerland), though similar levels of gun ownership. In such perspective, the richest country in the world, the USA has around 200 million guns among its population and by a strange coincidence, tens of thousands of gun deaths.

As I said in my previous post I am a gun owner myself, over the years some of the nicest guys I've known have been shooter and, well, quite a few of them shouldn't be allowed a pet guinea pig, they're that obnoxious.

I agree that pencils cannot be held responsible for incorrectly spelt words, though their designed to write or draw whatever the user wants, pencil manufacturers don't care. Gun makers manufacture handguns to kill people, they aren't a blank canvas, they are designed solely to accuratley and reliably kill what they're pointed at (.22 target pistols being somewhat of an exception).

I don't expect either of us to particularly change our minds on this issue, though I don't mind debating the hell out of it.

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Postby AlexMR » Sat Aug 13, 2005 12:36 am

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Postby AlexMR » Sat Aug 13, 2005 12:38 am

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Postby rdale » Sat Aug 13, 2005 1:41 am

You know in a hold'em game we each get two cards, but we aren't all equal players. Everyone owning a firearm doesn't automagically propel us into some sort of society that kind and tolerant of each other. Given the general mentality of Americans, I'm glad we don't all own guns as I see us as nation of adults that needs a babysitter, hence our mostly draconian laws.

I'm all for owning a gun if you feel the need and have purpose.

I've lived around, possessed and used firearms in the past and am open to the idea of doing so in the future if need be. Guns aren't evil, but there sure are a lot of stupid people with guns ready to do some evil either with intent or just in the heat of the moment. As far as weapons go, guns are great tools, but how many people actually have a use for firearm?

The last time I considered purchasing a firearm of my own, a shotgun, I was living in a very bad neighborhood. It was the kind of place when you come home and your stuff is still in the house you are kind of shocked and happy. There were frequent gunshots going off at night out my window, and crack being dealt on the corner. I was more worried about coming home and some guy having figured out how to get the lock off my weapon would be there to use it against me than needing one to protect myself. I have yet to met the crackhead that I can't kick to the dirt and I'm a tiny guy. Although I guess a crackhead generally would have trouble with the lock, it would still suck to get hit with the stock. My solution was to move as soon as I could afford it.

In my case of urban living I saw little need for a firearm and could only see bad of introducing one. In my rural living, firearms were great for killing sick animals, wild predators trying to eat healthy animals, target shooting, and if need me protecting the homestead which outside of the quick reach of the authorities from elements that I did not feel comfortable overcoming with direct physical force.
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Postby Ricardooon » Sat Aug 13, 2005 2:52 am

When I move to America the first thing I am going to do is buy a pick up truck.

The second thing is drive to gun shop and buy a Dirty Harry style cannon...

"My turn to do the washing up? Go on punk, make my day"

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Postby kennyg » Sat Aug 13, 2005 5:18 am

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Postby WildBillHickok » Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:58 am

Good that we can HAVE a CIVIL discussion here...

First, gns are primarily for self defense, not killing...the police do a great job, but 95% of all 911 responses are too late to stop the crime...they never publish or announce the millions of times a firearm PREVENTED a crime. Ask any ner do well thug in prison, if they know there's a gn in the house, they'll avoid that house like the plague. If two thugs walking down a dimly lit street see a woman by herself, but then the woman pulls out a firearm, the thugs will change their path and go elsewhere. Self defense is an inherent right...not one to be given a permit for.
Australia did a massive buy up of gns...640,381 firearms as a result of one mass murderer...it was supposed to reduce crime..did it? assaults are up 9%, armed robberies are up 44%...inthe state of Victoria, homicides w/ a firearm are up 300%.
Australian politicians are at a loss to explain this rise in violent crime following their buyup program. The unarmed are defenseless.
That made me laugh Ricardoon.
You must have been living on the west side of Louisville Rdale.
Yessir Alex, i forgot to mention Rwanda...a great example, from what i've heard, they disarmed all the folks there...thus they had not much ability to defend themselves and thus the genocide.

I agree, education is key...even more so, morality and strong family values...(i hesitate to use such a trite phrase that slimey self serving politicians use) The difference between today and 45 years ago here in the USA, is the decline or morality and family values...alas, we're headed down the same path as the Roman Empire. I don't particularly agree with our president either...i wish our men would come home now...it's all about the money over there. Don't think we can blame our current Pres. tho, the last one, every time his little head got him in trouble, he'd go over and bomb some 3rd world country...it happened several times...to take media and front page attention off himself...what goes around comes around...and then 9/11 hit us.
The REAL Wild West is in Wash, DC...it's our nation's murder capital...the old Wild West had a murder rate of 2 per 100,000 back in the 1800's...toDAY Wash, DC is 78 per 100,000..the old Wild West had its moments, but it was as civilized as rural America is today...the "Wild" image is Hollywood's doing.
...a little help from the GOA here...here are some of their statistics on causes of death in the USA:
General Death Rates

Heart disease 710,760
Cancer 553,091
Stroke (cerebrovascular disease) 167,661
Chronic lower respiratory diseases 122,009
Doctor's negligence 98,329
Influenza and pneumonia 65,313
Motor-vehicle 43,354
Suicides (all kinds, including firearms) 29,350
Firearms (Total)*

Suicides 16,586
Homicides 10,801
Accidents 776 Total 28,163

Accidents (six causes)

Falls 13,322
Poison (solid, liquid) 12,757
Choking on food or other object 4,313
Drowning 3,402
Fires, flames 3,377
Firearms 766

back to me...interesting...you're more likely to be killed by a medical doctor today than by a gn.

more from GOA...back in England...* England: According to the BBC News, handgun crime in the United Kingdom rose by 40% in the two years after it passed its draconian gun ban in 1997.
British citizens are now more likely to become a victim of crime than are people in the United States:
"You are more likely to be mugged in England than in the United States," stated the Reuters news agency in summarizing the study. "The rate of robbery is now 1.4 times higher in England and Wales than in the United States, and the British burglary rate is nearly double America’s."158 The murder rate in the United States is reportedly higher than in England, but according to the DOJ study, "the difference between the [murder rates in the] two countries has narrowed over the past 16 years."159
* The United Nations confirmed these results in 2000 when it reported that the crime rate in England is higher than the crime rates of 16 other industrialized nations, including the United States.160
4. British authorities routinely underreport murder statistics. Comparing statistics between different nations can be quite difficult since foreign officials frequently use different standards in compiling crime statistics.
* The British media has remained quite critical of authorities there for "fiddling" with crime data. Consider some of the headlines in their papers: "Crime figures a sham, say police,"161 "Police are accused of fiddling crime data,"162 and "Police figures under-record offences by 20 percent."
* British police have also criticized the system because of the "widespread manipulation" of crime data:
a. "Officers said that pressure to convince the public that police were winning the fight against crime had resulted in a long list of ruses to ‘massage’ statistics."
b. Sgt. Mike Bennett says officers have become increasingly frustrated with the practice of manipulating statistics. "The crime figures are meaningless," he said. "Police everywhere know exactly what is going on.
also from GOA...Self-defense
A. Guns save more lives than they take; prevent more injuries than they inflict
* Guns are used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year—or about 6,850 times a day20. This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives.21
* Of the 2.5 million times citizens use their guns to defend themselves every year, the overwhelming majority merely brandish their gun or fire a warning shot to scare off their attackers. Less than 8% of the time, a citizen will kill or wound his/her attacker.22
* As many as 200,000 women use a gun every year to defend themselves against sexual abuse.23

* Armed citizens kill more crooks than do the police. Citizens shoot and kill at least twice as many criminals as police do every year (1,527 to 606)25. And readers of *

* Florida: (my note, in high populated cities) concealed carry helps slash the murder rate in the state. In the fifteen years following the passage of Florida's concealed carry law in 1987, over 800,000 permits to carry firearms were issued to people in the state.32 FBI reports show that the homicide rate in Florida, which in 1987 was much higher than the national average, fell 52% during that 15-year period—thus putting the Florida rate below the national average.33

* Do firearms carry laws result in chaos? No. Consider the case of Florida. A citizen in the Sunshine State is far more likely to be attacked by an alligator than to be assaulted by a concealed carry holder.
* During the first fifteen years that the Florida law was in effect, alligator attacks outpaced the number of crimes committed by carry holders by a 229 to 155 margin.34


C. Criminals avoid armed citizens
* Kennesaw, GA. In 1982, this suburb of Atlanta passed a law requiring heads of households to keep at least one firearm in the house. The residential burglary rate subsequently dropped 89% in Kennesaw, compared to the modest 10.4% drop in Georgia as a whole.37
* Ten years later (1991), the residential burglary rate in Kennesaw was still 72% lower than it had been in 1981, before the law was passed.38
* Nationwide. Statistical comparisons with other countries show that burglars in the United States are far less apt to enter an occupied home than their foreign counterparts who live in countries where fewer civilians own firearms. Consider the following rates showing how often a homeowner is present when a burglar strikes:

* Homeowner occupancy rate in the gun control countries of Great Britain, Canada and Netherlands: 45% (average of the three countries); and,
* Homeowner occupancy rate in the United States: 12.7%.39
Rapes averted when women carry or use firearms for protection
* Orlando, FL. In 1966-67, the media highly publicized a safety course which taught Orlando women how to use guns. The result: Orlando’s rape rate dropped 88% in 1967, whereas the rape rate remained constant in the rest of Florida and the nation.40
* Nationwide. In 1979, the Carter Justice Department found that of more than 32,000 attempted rapes, 32% were actually committed. But when a woman was armed with a gun or knife, only 3% of the attempted rapes were actually successful.41
Justice Department study:

* 3/5 of felons polled agreed that "a criminal is not going to mess around with a victim he knows is armed with a gun."42

* 74% of felons polled agreed that "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot during the crime."43

* 57% of felons polled agreed that "criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police."44

ok, :shock: , don't get me started...i think i'll play a game of poker...then go to a gn show. 8-)
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Postby Felonius_Monk » Sat Aug 13, 2005 9:01 am

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Postby Felonius_Monk » Sat Aug 13, 2005 9:20 am

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A licky boom boom down.
Detective mon said daddy me snow me stab someone down the lane,
A licky boom boom down." - Snow, 1993
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Postby Kuso » Sat Aug 13, 2005 10:22 am

Given the history of the issue in the US, I seriously doubt that guns will ever be outlawed. A much better solution, imho, revolves around much better regulation -- a topic that is not really discussed much.

I know MANY people who own guns and do not know how to use them properly, esp. in self-defense. I actually agree with the idea that Americans have the right to own guns. That being said, I think these same people should be responsible for weilding them with the appropriate amount of training and knowledge of self-defense. How to implement such a system is a different topic (e.g., regs set by government but training done by private enterprises), but I think the idea is sound.

Also, a historical question:

My German teacher in high school suggested that Switzerland was not invaded primarily due to geography -- the mountainous region was not so suitable for blitzkreig tactics. I was told that all of the tunnels through the mountains were rigged with explosives so that attackers could be blocked from the easiest access routes into the country.

That, and Switzerland didn't really have much strategic value.

Can anyone comment on the veraciity of these claims?

[edited for spelling]
Last edited by Kuso on Sat Aug 13, 2005 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby iceman5 » Sat Aug 13, 2005 12:08 pm

Kuso, I think that had alot more to do with it than people owning guns. A gun doesnt do all that much against a tank.

Germany couldve taken any country it wanted back then, mainly because nobody else had an Army that could stop them. Germany didnt want Switzerland at that point, but Im sure if they wouldve defeated us, they wouldve taken Switzerland eventually also.

They were spread very thin, which is one of the main reasons we beat them and there was no need to spread thinner and try to fight "on the ground" which is what it would take in the mountains. You cant drive a tank up and down a mountain excpet on the roads and if the roads are destroyed/ blocked ....you have problems.
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Postby Felonius_Monk » Sat Aug 13, 2005 1:31 pm

Germany had no reason to invade switzerland whilst they were annexing the whole of mainland europe in the late 1930s. And no, Kuso, they could've overthrown the country very easily. I realise the French are a bunch of garlic-swilling surrender monkeys with piss-poor car manufacture and mediocre wine their top national exports, but the toughest nut the Germans had to crack in WW2 on mainland europe was probably France, also (to some extent) Poland, which had the most skilled airforce of the time.

Germany's army was awesome in the 1930s compared to every other one in the world, including Americe and Britain. It was the fact that Britain and America weren't in mainland Europe and that the Germans made some HORRIFIC tactical errors (invading russia for instance, not beating the brits when we were on our knees) that gave both countries time to develop and rebuild, and ultimately the massive resources of the US and the large navy and airforce of the US meant that the Germans were badly outnumbered and outgunned. In the 30s though, every mainland european campaign they engaged in was a walk-over.
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A licky boom boom down.
Detective mon said daddy me snow me stab someone down the lane,
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Postby briachek » Sat Aug 13, 2005 2:37 pm

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Postby AlexMR » Sat Aug 13, 2005 3:38 pm

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Postby TightWad » Sat Aug 13, 2005 3:44 pm

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