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The Doyle Brunson Move

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The Doyle Brunson Move

Postby tooters » Mon Feb 14, 2005 5:05 pm

Now I know that this is primaraly a tourny move but I wanted to lay out the average scenario I find my self in alot.

$100NL 6 max Party assuming full stacks or better

Limp in w/Ax suited, flop comes 4 to a flush If i'm early or 1st to bet I bet out $5 into what is usually no bigger than a $9 pot or if im late and someone bets into me a small amount like 5 I will raise the min or a little more.

Then the guy will either raise my initial bet from 5 to like 20 or reraise my initial raise like a bunch.

1.My question is should I go all in. They rarly fold in either sit, which is half the reason for doing it in tournys. I have 2 cards left to hit my flush and the possibility of doubling up if I do.
2.If the stacks are larger than the 100 max should I go all in more often because of the larger possible upside, and larger chance that theyll fold.
3.could someone please explain the pot odds in these situations

Thanks
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Postby Molina » Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:11 am

in a cash game my style in this situation is to try and make the as cheaply as possible.

In your scenario there are some problems i see; you are playing a draw out of position, i dont mind raising someone in late position with the flush draw, hoping i might get a probably necessary free card on the turn. you also say theres little chance of the opponent folding to an all in reraise which eliminates the semi bluff aspect and changes it to a race/gamble with nut outs.

the deeper the stacks the less i don't want to go all in with only ace high at that point, depending on what the flop is could at least be up against a set or 2 pair which are both near certain to call at $100NL level, both of which have outs against a flush.

getting on opponent to go all in gets you incorrect implied odds, assuming equal stacks, if you got 2 opponents all in then you'd have correct odds, though only with about a 3% edge

just my take on things

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Postby Rhound50 » Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:01 pm

Tooters, this really not a good idea. Leading into this pot isnt a bad idea out of postion and see if you can take down the pot. If you get reraised a large amount you need to fold. You make the flush draw about 1 out of 3 times. Going all in here is usually not a good idea. You might be able to get your opponant to fold but you are not going to be able to get them to fold often enough to make this a good play.

In the second sceanrio when you are in position a small raise does usually allow you to get a free card. The only bad part is that if you get reraise large you have to fold.
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Postby tooters » Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:33 pm

Thanks guys great advice.
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Postby cholo loco » Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:54 pm

the time i use this play is almost always in a tournament when chip stack sizes make it where you cant resonably fold the hand and the amount of money is enough, coupled with the chance your opponent will fold to make it an +ev play. i usually will check raise all in in these scenarios and it can be the right play in some situations.
raising for a free card in no limit is usually a very bad idea. thats a limit poker move.
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Postby rdale » Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:27 am

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Postby cholo loco » Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:04 am

the problem is that many players will make a large raise when you pop it up to 5 and you will have to lay down a hand that could have broke him and doubled you up.
what you have essentially done is let your opponent put you to a very tough decision where you have to call a too large bet with a draw or lay down a hand that could turn into a monster. better in almost all cercumstances to just take a cheap caqrd off if you intention is to get a freecard.
if however you want to make a play for the pot with a larger reraise, of course withholding your right to take a freecard if he dosent cooperate. the free card shold be seen as an extra bonus not a primary concern.
so to recap my opinion if you know your opponent will call dont raise for a free card, but if you think you have a good chance to win the pot go ahaed but realize he may move in and then youve let him put you in a bad spot. in limit this is no prob yo9u just call and have wasted a potion of a bet but your never gonna cost yourself a pot. in no limit you can cost yourself a double up.
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Postby Aisthesis » Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:35 am

Hmmmm... I'm no expert by any means on short-handed play, but here's my $.02:

First, it seems to me like short-handed is much more of a raise or fold situation, so I don't entirely see limping with AXs in EP in the first place--although it's not a bad hand to raise with if the table is playing a little on the tight side.

And at full table, I see AXs as a definite LP hand, ideally with a fair number of limpers in (or possibly a blind-steal hand, although I'm not a big fan of doing a lot of stealing at a full ring game).

Finally, as several have noted, I think the semi-bluff needs a reasonable chance of folding the field. The idea really is to make a bet that has a good chance of folding everyone (which is often more difficult short-handed than at a full table). The fold probability is basically what makes it a good bet, even though you are something of an underdog. A semi-bluff is still a bluff--just a much better one. Imo, if the probability is very low of folding the field, then it's best just to fold right there (possibly PF, depending on table texture).
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I have tried this move in cash games....

Postby AlexMR » Wed May 11, 2005 6:04 pm

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Re: I have tried this move in cash games....

Postby rdale » Wed May 11, 2005 8:54 pm

Against a calling station no... you have to show them a hand, against the weak tight this works really nicely. When you push on a draw at any stakes, you have to be prepared that they will call, you are bluffing and it will fail a good deal of the time when you are called, but it works every time that they fold :D

In your instance he had a hand he was willing to play for all the money, you had set yourself up for the bluff to work really nicely with the preflop raise, it just didn't work that time against that opponent.

$50 NL, I call a raise from the big blind with 35d and pick up a gutshot straight and flush draw on a K high flop. I lead, he raises I push. My thinking is AK KK AA call, QQ-88 missed big Ace that doesn't have the flush draw folds almost all of the time, there is also the slim chance he will mistake my aggression for a set and fold everything except KK. Adding in the folding equity even though he had raised preflop was so high, that pushing on a draw where if he has a one pair hand and having about a 45% chance of making a legit hand, makes this a positive ev bluff with 5 high on the flop.

Losing a buy in isn't the worse thing in the world, and you are shown to be a gambler win or lose, which can lead to more action later and that is always nice. I don't like to make these moves as big stack against a big stack, or with a fresh buy in. I want to do it when I'm well ahead of the game, especially against someone with less than a full buy in, or against a player that I know I have a fair shot of pushing around. When I get to about $120 the variance I am used to is about $20-$30 swings either way in the .25/.50 game, and this continues until I quit playing, I usually leave with a triple or better stack. So there is room to gamble it up and make the all in on a draw move at the lower levels, you just have to pick proper spots to do it.

Edit:
I should add that I don't advocate making a habit of pushing on a draw, but that there are times where it is a good play.
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