OK. Here's what I mean:

When I first started playing NLHE SnGs online, not too many months ago, I discovered quickly it was good strategy to lay back for a couple of levels and wait for all the blustery maniacs to blow themselves up. You know the type, get a pocket pair or maybe hit TP or even a flush draw on the flop and they gleefully throw all their chips in the pot. It was pretty much automatic that you would see this a few times in the first several hands of an SnG.

Now, in the past couple of weeks, perhaps a month, I've been seeing something completely different. I don't see the all-in maniacs so much any more. Now what I'm seeing almost every tournament is everyone limping in to start, someone throwing a minimum raise out there every now and again preflop only to have everyone call it and then go through the Chinese water torture of having someone throw out a minimum raise and having most everyone call, or everyone checking down, to showdown.

And someone will end up taking the pot with second or even third pair or something.

And then, to complicate matters, many of these people will call a standard (3xBB or so) preflop raise just to see a flop. And then no matter what the board turns up, they'll throw out a minimum bet but call you if you raise them even a decent amount. Sometimes they'll show TPTK, sometimes they'll hit their draw, sometimes they'll have nothing.

The problem is, YOU CAN'T FIGURE OUT WHAT THE HELL THEY HAVE.

It's making me nuts.

Anyone else notice this new style of SnG play? If so, what are you doing to adjust your game?

Hey, guy, good to see you over here.

You probably remember I posted about this way back in late Jan. on the THE forum, after the morons had lost all the money they got from grandma for Christmas. You are right, the first levels now are ridiculous. I'm seeing 9 still in at level 4 and 5. They are tighter, but still play moronic poker. I'm really getting tired of self-styled experts telling me how to play and criticising me, until they're gone, that it. Mostly, I ignore the first three levels. Unless I have the absolute nuts, I fold.

Did you know that the upper levels have an ante? I didn't, until recently. I'm seeing 2 out of 3 SNGs get to that point, with 5 people still in. SNGs aren't the easy money they used to be. They make you work hard for it, now. I'm actually not sure it's cost effective, time-wise, to play these so much, anymore. (My ITM % has dropped, lately, too.)

Anybody else seeing this trend?

Hi, Jack. They're not tighter from what I'm seeing. If anything, they're looser in that they play way more hands. But they're way more passive. It's like they're playing low-stakes limit poker. No one will bet out on anything. It's limp-limp-limp-miniraise-call-call-call-call-call all the way around preflop. Then on the flop it'll be check-check-check-check-minibet-call-call-call-call-call-call. Maybe a miniraise in there. And they'll do that all the way to the end.

They do that with TPTK, they do that with bottom pair, they do that with everything.

If you have a hand and get in there, say, with a 4xBB raise, three or four of them will call you. Then come the flop, someone will start it out with a minibet again, comes around to you, you bet the pot, someone will call you. And then maybe they'll have something, maybe they won't. You just don't know.

Anyway, everyone will still be hanging around at around the third or fourth level, and everyone will have about the same amount of chips. Because no one will commit anything, and the chips just get passed around the table.

It's making me nuts.

What SNG levels are you guys playing at? What sites? Is it a sites-specific thing, or pokerworld wide?

OK - I have been playing the $5 + .50 SnGs on UB for the past year. I have definitely noticed the play getting tighter. It used to be that by about the 50th hand you were down to 5ish players. You could basically fold into the money over 50% of the time. I would just play AA, KK, AK until the blinds got to 50/100 (level 5). Then shift gears and deal with the last 2 or 3 opponents. Now you get to 50/100 and there are 7 or 8 still in and I'm in sixth place. My ITM and ROI have dropped and I am not playing as many as I used to play.

Some of what I am seeing is that now maybe 4 or 5 other players know what they are doing instead of the old 2 or 3(max). The others are like Flafishy describes - playing anything but not aggressively.

I don't have any answers. I still am playing my game - tight early and then change gears - but i find that my 4th place finishes now match my 3rd and 2nd places. Yech.

I would love to hear from someone who has ideas on how to deal with this.

FWIW---I agree the low level SNG's have changed quite a bit in the last several months (I play my SNG's excusivley at P Stars) and 99% of the time they are 5 buck NL..my results are actually better than before, although an admittedly small sampling of 35 or so...I have been gambling a bit more early on, which I NEVER did last year...I have written about this a couple times in the past...The games are many times quite passive, and tough to put folks on a hand till later in the tourney, but I do think a modified strategy is warrented...Coincidentally, I re-read Palamans strategy for SNG's last night ( I have considered this to be the bible of low level SNG's) and while I still agree with 98% of the overall strategy, I would love to hear his opinion on this. My opinion is a change in strategy may be useful, but I still feel these games are beatable BIG time...I would enjoy hearing opinions on the larger (50$ buy ins?) since I never play that large (Yet LOL)...
Hope it's worth 2 cents
B

Played 2 $20 SNGs yesterday on Absolute. Out of the money both times. The last time, 8 players had reached level 7. I used to like the structure of the tournaments on Absolute, Poker Stars, etc.--1500 chips to start and blinds go up every 15 minutes--but now I think they're working against me. And, this is not fun, anymore. I think I'll be a ring player more, now, until a new strategy develops. Or play them on Party, which I think is still more easily beatable.

I've been trying the same approach for the last couple of weeks, and have not done as well. I had AQ, caught a Q on the flop, became "uber-aggressive" and saw QQ from EP at the showdown. QQ, limping? I've seen AA and KK limping from all over. I've seen people chase down and catch just about everything. I know how you feel when you call them candy-asses. It's implied collusion to the maximum, these days. They just plain-ass suck. If you get the cards, you win. If you don't, you lose.

So, I'm going back to playing ring limit games, only. SNGs have put a serious hit on my BR. I'll play the occasional MTT. Maybe I'll even do more. But, the other day, someone said, "it's only twenty bucks," to which I replied, "no, it's a hundred." I expect to win.

Let us know how it goes.

...interesting post...i've noticed too the SNG's are tougher...right now, i play only $20 and $30 sngs at UB...the last few, the competition was much tougher...last night during a $20 sng, i rate players, color code them...green is weak, yellow is respectable, orange is very solid and red, well, extremely few reds out there imho, as red would be a very top player, one with very few leaks and very seldom make mistakes and knows all the nuances, etc.
Anyway as the game progressed, everyone got a yellow but then i started changing them to oranges, after observing plays...when there were 5 of us left, all were oranges except one, then after watching him closely, he got my respect and became an orange.
Some kid, the big chip leader was good, surprisingly for a 19 year old...he said he'd never read a book upon asking him. He played a Doyle type style and always showed good hands, until once he got caught w/ a 72o on the button after a 3x raise (this stuck in my mind and came in handy later) ...both guys flanking me were tight, solid aggressive. Many comments made, you could tell everyone was pretty good....
i was on the BB once with J8o, it limped to the button, he raised 2x, SB folded and i quickly called...the flop came J little little rainbow, i bet the pot, he called...turn - check check (me fearing he had something or better kicker, he bet the nothing river card 1/2 pot, after thinking, i called and had him beat...he berated me for calling the
pre flop and i told him i had odds and he couldn't understand this...LEAK. (slow down when you get called with a weak kicker)
Someone finally knocked out the 5th guy, he wasn't getting cards but hung in there because he was patient and good and stole a few pots...down to 4 of us...130 hands into this...
The big play for me ( i was 3rd in chips) came when i had K10o on the button, it was limped to me, so i brought it in for 3.5x , the Kid who was UTG called...flop came K82 two of same suit...the Kid bet, i raised 2x his bet to see where i was, he called...turn came nothing, he checked, i bet pot, he check raised all in...hmmmmm...didn't think he had a King at this point...figured him for the draw on the flush...then remembered him check raising all in earlier in the game, then showing his bluff with 2 weak cards, then remembered the 72o trick, so called him....he was on the draw with AQ...my K's held up...the other guys went wild...the Kid berated me for making that TP weak kicker call, guy on my right berated the Kid for doing the CR and all in...i said it was not a bad move, but more of a ring NL move, The Kid said he had a 50% shot at winning still... very heated debate...somehow my chips held out for the rest of the tourny...but man this was a premium table, i thought more like a $200 SNG...
CJ, limit may be your best bet for the steady money...a good player on another forum made a fair living playing limit, then she moved over to NL and lost her substantial bankroll and was too stubborn to realize she did better at Limit. GL

Oh, yeah, I'm not surprised about QQ limping. I haven't really seen that, but I have seen them do a minimum raise with AA or KK or whatever, and then miniraise to showdown. It's like these people don't know how to use the slider or betting mechanism, and only know how to click a call or raise button.

What I HAVE seen is calling down or even checking down to showdown with top pair, even with a strong kicker. I specifically remember one guy checking down with KA with a K-high board.

It worked again for me last night, at Pacific Poker. A third and then a first in two tries. In 3.5 SnGs now with this approach, I'm finding that somebody will call your preflop raise, and then they'll call your big flop bet. But if you stick with it on the turn, they'll go away unless they do hit something. I've been sucked out on once or twice, but I haven't had trouble getting those chips right back.

I'm not bullying with everything, mind you. I haven't really changed my hand selection or my strategy of laying low through the first level or two. But I've gotten more aggressive with the hands I do play. Instead of my standard 3xBB preflop raise, I've been making it 4xBB to go, at least before the blinds start making that prohibitive. I'll even go to 5x if I'm in LP and several have limped in.

And I've bumped up my attack on the turn. I've always bet the pot on the flop if I want to stay in. But on the turn, where I used to do bet about 2/3 pot, I've bumped that up to 3/4 or even 1x. They'll go away if they don't have anything. If they stick with you on the turn, it probably would be a good idea to check to showdown unless you're absolutely sure you have the best hand.

As far as limit ring games, forget it. I haven't been able to win at LHE ring in a month-and-a-half. Apparently, I've forgotten how to play it. I have a couple of bonuses stacked up at Interpoker, but I'm going to leave them there for now and go over to Stars' .50/$1 tables until I get my game back.

WildBill, I'm not talking about good players here. In fact, they suck big time. It's just that this candy-ass style of play has seemed to become the current style, and I just needed to figure out what adjustments to make to counteract.

i see your point Fishy, move up to the $20 SNGs, w/ at least a 300-400 bankroll and you'll dump most of those c.a. players... ( when i moved from limit to NL, i had alot of ingrained limit style playing that it took a few months and alot of reading to get rid of...good habits in limit but not good in NL )

The godfather of poker says it's easier to play against better players than weak players...hmmmm, this reminds me of a story...tbc

GL with'em